ep. 511 - The Zuni Enigma

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Primitive Intelligence podcast

episode 511 The Zuni Enigma.
This is the one we've all been

waiting for.
Rocco's got.

I mean, I cleared 500 gigabytes
of hard drive space just to

store all the information I know
you got for this.

I mean, I know you got a lot.
I'm.

I'm glad unfortunately you
didn't clear enough so.

We're going to have to get some,
some some more, some more hard

drives to this.
Well, we'll we'll muddle through

I think.
So hopefully.

This has been a weekly challenge
for me to get the video and the

audio right and last week I know
that my video was all off.

So if you're if you're watching
this and you're not just

listening to it, my audio sync
was all sorts of off.

There was a crash on the server
that we use and it took like an

extra day to get the video file
and it just wasn't right.

So I did the best with it I
could, but hopefully if if that

happens again, I might just do
like the album artwork cover for

the that video and not deal with
all the video hassle.

So we'll we'll see how it goes.
But yeah, so you've been

researching this one for a
little bit.

Yeah, this one, it's I I can't
necessarily.

I said this before, I can't
remember.

Where I heard this or how I
found it, my late father he

liked Native Americans and he
had some things and maybe it was

from there, I can't remember.
But I I it's it's an actual nice

hardcover book believe it or
not.

I picked up I I've been trying
to to go back in time a little

bit with.
More tactile sensations like

actually real reading material
and and trying to stay away from

computers.
So I work.

I work in front of computers all
day.

So I'm trying to to do something
different which is which is

where this book came in And and
it it, it ties into our our last

episode where you had been
contemplating let's say what

happens to societies.
How could they just disappear.

How could we have you know how
could.

Humans have built such such
structures or or roads or

whatever it might be.
And and where did they go?

Well, that's what we're going to
find.

It it ties into that.
So.

So it's going to be, it's going
to be an interesting little

story, all right.
I'm excited, and it's going to

be it's going to be mostly your
show here, so we're going to

just let you run free with it,
the Primitive Intelligence

podcast starts.
All right.

Well, I'm, I'm curious to hear
what you got after all this

research, so I'm just going to
hand it over to you and let you

go.
Yeah, so First off I'll say I I

I felt like a kid again,
actually sitting down reading

and and with a highlighter and
and taking notes.

Everything, everything has been
digital for me for for for a

long time.
So the first thing I will say,

you know this touches on a
couple of different things.

So it does speak about Native
Americans and the book sometimes

will refer to them as Indians.
I don't want to offend anybody.

I'm trying to stick to the the
actual verbiage in the book and

it does touch on some some
thoughts that you know, maybe

maybe Columbus wasn't the first
person.

To to discover America and I
don't want to offend anybody

there, so yeah, so, so mostly
I'm going to stick with the the

book contents itself.
I did do a little bit of

research and a little bit of
Googling, but I wanted us to

stick with the the the actual
content and I don't know if if

in case anybody.
I don't know if this is going to

translate the Zuni Enigma.
It's by Nancy Yad Davis and a

little bit about her.
She was born in 1936 and she's

still alive, living in Alaska.
And she right and she was a

professor at a few universities.
And when it comes to this book,

she started her theoretical
journey March 1960.

And it evolved over time and
eventually she presented her her

theory in May of 1988.
So it's it's it's interesting.

So it's it's not a it's not like
some today.

Sometimes it feels like people
hammer out books and very

quickly so she had some time.
Where I'll start is who are the

Zuni?
It's a good place to start, and

there are Native American Pueblo
people.

Who are believed to be in the
northern New Mexico region for

about 3000 to 4000 years.
So this one is a recent maybe in

in what we think of as America.
But they've been around for a

while.
The the Zuni tribal name, and I

apologize for butchering any
names, is Ashiwi.

So the Zuni name itself some
some claim.

That it was a Spanish adaptation
for a word of unknown meaning.

So who knows where it came from?
And there are others say that

it's a a derivation of another
Pueblo tribe.

The carries if I if I pronounce
that correctly.

So, so realistically if you're
going to search for anything,

you can't search for Zuni but
Ashiwi and it it's it's a

apostrophe SHIWI and I don't
know if I'm pronouncing that

correctly, but I've been saying.
Ashiwi so so this the the the

Zuni tribe, I'll refer to it as
a Zuni tribe.

There are, it's a Pueblo tribe
and there are 19 Pueblo tribes

in North America and that's
that's good for context.

So keep that in mind. 19 tribes.
And as far as the information I

have, Zuni is the largest tribe
of over 10,000 people so.

It it's the the story or the the
interest, I guess where I'll

start is that we're, you know,
why are we talking about the

Zuni, what's what's the deal?
So the Zuni are distinct.

And the fact that they've
managed to remain quite

unaffected by other influences,
they still claim the same land

that they've always lived on,
which is the size of Rhode

Island and that does that is
saying a lot if they're still in

the same land.
And they also mainly reside in

one city which is in Zuni, NM
the interest, and I think this

is sort of how I found an
interest in them.

Is the language itself is
distinct and not related to any

other language.
It does not have any affiliation

to any other language in North
America.

And if you think about the other
19 Pueblo tribes then you would

have to imagine how could it be
so unique and distinct as a

culture.
So that's that's where the.

That's that's where the story
starts.

So you know what, what's the
deal with the Zuni?

What's their story?
And is there any evidence that

we have or anything that we can
find as far as why they might be

unique or what's what's really
their story?

And again, I I wanted to stay
true to the book, so I didn't

actually look up the Zuni story
itself to hear it from their

words.
I was I might be a good take

away, but I'm going to
consolidate what I have from

this book as far as where they
believe they came from and their

journey itself as as a people.
Now it's interesting because I

listened to that interview today
with that Zuni elder, so I'm

curious to see if what you say
matches up with what he said.

I'm very curious too.
And again, this book is not a

new book.
I believe this copy is from the

year 2000 and again the research
started in 1960 and this kind of

came out in 19 where the theory
came out in 1988.

So I'm sure a lot has changed or
a lot of theories may may have

been influenced in the last few
decades.

So the story itself.
I'm I'm consolidating it.

But I'm going to try to hit the
the high marks.

So the the people themselves
they they believe that they were

not created.
They were born from mother

Earth.
So there was the Son Father and

the Mother Earth and in the
beginning the earth was soft.

There were no humans in the
world, and the Son Father used

to travel across the earth and
heard the cries of his children

deep within the earth.
And at one point the son father

saw two columns of foam near a
waterfall and gave them life.

So basically created twin gods
and then ordered the twin gods

to go into the earth and to go
into mother earth and and free

the people.
So that that I think, is an

interesting context where they
were born.

And then were led by the twin
gods on their journey.

To a certain extent do these
twin gods.

Have names.
I don't have the names.

There are two.
There are names.

Yes, I I was out.
There's a lot of names that I'd

probably butcher.
So I'm.

I stayed away from them.
The story and I'm a big fan of

stories.
So when the Earth was young,

they believed that there were
many earthquakes.

And many and frequently.
And they became Wanderers.

So they were looking for a
stable and and well non

dangerous place to to live.
So led by the twin gods they

sought what they called the
middle of the world under the

pathway of the sun.
So they just continued to to

move east along their journey
and the story itself.

Says that they stopped many
times, but earthquakes would

always cause them to leave and
move forward, and it's at this

time that I'd also like to
introduce the Japanese.

So in the Japanese.
There is a speech attributed to

the first emperor of Japan and a
document from 697 AD and and

this is, this is interesting
because we don't have a lot of

well, at least we're not taught
a lot of stories about any other

cultures that knew about
America.

You know, except for the
standard Christopher Columbus,

there's not a lot of thoughts,
so.

This part of the speech from 697
AD, and I'm going to quote this

from the book.
It's now I've heard from the

ancient of the Sea that in the
east there's a fair land circled

on all sides by Blue Mountains.
I think this land is will

undoubtedly be suitable for the
extension of the heavenly task,

so that all so that it's a glory
should fill the universe.

It is doubtless the center of
the world.

So and that was from Japan in
692 this?

Is 697 and this is from.
This is supposedly from the

first emperor of Japan and
there's discussions that at this

point there were Buddhist monks
that were basically traveling

the world and or I shouldn't say
the world, but.

What they knew as the world and
they're trying to settle and and

and find other locations.
And as I think you discussed in

the last episode with the Olmecs
and the Chinese, you know, there

was evidence that it sounds as
though there were Chinese that

that, you know, visited the
Olmecs to the point where

someone was recognized as one of
their their own kind.

So I think this is also an
interesting, an interesting note

that there is evidence that at
least there was this thought

process, a land beyond what they
knew and they believed that this

would be a part of, you know,
what their world is that that

would be important to them.
Also, one thing to know is that

if you think about the ocean.
And ocean cultures there are,

there are a lot of, well, I
should say a lot because I don't

really know in context, but
there were seashells that have

been found, that have been found
in archaeological sites in the

southwest dating from 600 AD.
So there had to be at least a

trade route or some sort of
travel from the Pacific into the

Southwest bringing seashells.
So there had to at least be a

connection.
Out that far now to get back to

the the the story.
So the Zuni tribe has this,

this, this tales in their tribe
that they continue to move on

because of all these
earthquakes.

Because of all this, the
problems in the environment and

we touch on some.
Some dates and and things that

happened in Japan or at least in
that region.

So the period of seven, 732 to
741 was a decade of disasters,

storms, earthquakes, floods,
droughts were widespread.

Famine and plague follow 600
years and the next 600 years

between 1340 and 1350.
There were a number of

calamities that struck.
There was civil war.

There was a drought in 1340 and
earthquake in 401341, smallpox

in 1342, earthquakes in
13461347, a drought in 1348, a

typhoon, floods and another
earthquake in 1349.

And there were so many disasters
that in 1349 there was a custom

for praying from the leaf of.
Of these, of all of these

calamities.
So this is in Japan.

According to According to the
book that this is a reference to

Japan, I did not research to see
if it necessarily was there.

We were according to this, yes.
Oh, this is a reference in Zuni

culture to these disasters in
Japan.

This is a a connection that that
Nancy R Davis makes to say hey.

You know, even though the Zumi
have these stories in Japan, all

of this happened.
And it all happened from like

7730 to let's just say up to
like 1350.

There was all of this, all of
these problems that were being

that the the peoples were
experiencing.

So to get back to the Zumi so
their story talks about.

And and this is, this is what
ties back to your your your

thought process in the last
episode about what happens to

people you know, where do they
go, where do they come from?

Well, this story tells about a
number of people that the Zuni

met on their travels to find the
middle.

You know there was a story about
how they met a people who taught

them much about war.
You know, they they thought they

reached the the middle and they
built homes.

Learned about war.
There were many, but again many

earthquakes.
They died.

People died in their houses.
They move forward.

They stopped.
Again they met another people,

people of the sea.
So they they found themselves in

what they called the steam mist
mists, the waters which they

think is possibly Hot Springs.
So they again they they found

peoples living in houses
scattered over the hills.

They won them over.
And they they integrated and the

children became one.
But again more calamities.

So this one was interesting is
that there was a a story about

how eventual earthquakes, black
smoke, fumes, fire and Thunder

were encountered and there is a
thought process that this goes

back to.
What could possibly be an

eruption in Flagstaff, AZ in the
year 1064?

So there is, there is, you could
draw a line to some of these

disasters that may have
occurred.

So then of course, after this
they move, they move on.

And then they found another
people's who built high in the

cliffs in their own fields.
A lot of possessions and had

knowledge of irrigation, so they
settled there and and that might

tie into the Anasazi, yeah, So I
was thinking so.

There's all these stories and
and eventually they came to a

point where these groups split
into three.

There were people that moved N
people moved South, and then

people that continued to move
east, so.

I I I quickly go over their
story because it is very

interesting.
I will butcher the names and the

locations and the thought
process about the certain

locations that are are unique
and important to them.

But I like the story that they
at least continue to travel east

and they repeatedly met people
they either were.

I'm assuming it's somewhere at
war, but they learned.

From each peoples they settled,
they got knowledge, they

integrated, and then they
continue to move on.

So that ties back for me into
our thought process from last

from the last episode.
Where do some of these people

go?
And like this is it's possible

that things may have occurred in
the past, either they integrated

or there were natural disasters
and people just moved on.

So it's an interesting thought
process as far as.

From where they started to where
they currently are in Zuni, NM,

where they they were on this
this adventure, or seeking,

seeking the middle, seeking the
promised land, if you will.

So the the question then becomes
if we're thinking that or let's

just say in the book, if there
were a group of Japanese monks

that landed on the East Coast,
started to travel into America

and then eventually met up with
the Zuni and integrated, where's

the evidence?
What do we have?

And I, I and I say this a lot as
far as what we know science or

what we know, it's it's just all
about what we know.

So what are the what, what's the
evidence.

So the one thing as I mentioned
in the beginning, the language.

So it's it's very unique to the
Zuni itself.

So both languages and again, I'm
not a linguist so I couldn't

tell you, but the the
resemblances are not only

limited to certain vocabulary
words, but to the synthetic

structures and grammatical
elements, OK.

And it's in between what it is,
what Zuni and what Zuni and the

Japanese.
OK, so the most interesting part

is that both languages exhibit a
preference for using subject,

object, verb order, which is
relatively rare among all of the

world's languages.
And thinking about well, you

have even if you think about the
the the tribes that exist.

Now if if the culture all grew
up in a similar region, you

would assume that there should
be some similarities and and

that could be an explanation of
why their language is so unique.

There are a few words that I'll
mention.

There is a list of words whether
or not they are derivatives of

themselves.
I'm not one to say, but there's

a Zuni word for clan, which is
Kwe Kui.

In Japanese it's Kwai Kwai.
The word for clown is NEWE Niwi

if you will.
For clown, yeah, they had clowns

and well, I can't say what the
definition of clown was, but the

clown and and in Japanese it was
Niwaka, NIWAKA and.

It's just similar.
Similar in Zumi Priest is

Shawani SHAWANI.
In Japanese, it's Shiwani Shi.

Oh, I think I might have that
backwards.

That just verifies how close.
In Japanese it's shiwani and in

Zuni it's Shiwani SHIWANI.
That's close.

So I might have had those
backwards, right?

So there there are some similar
words and there it they do go

into more context about the OR
the not originations with

similarities.
Some of the words to me, I

wouldn't know the difference.
It it, I would say no, they're

not related, but I'm I wouldn't,
I wouldn't be one to know.

You can also look at how they
were pronounced too because just

because we read it the way would
be American doesn't mean that

that's you know their
pronunciation for letter

combinations may be completely
different So it may look like a

different word but it may be
pronounced the same or similar

And and I would, I would
actually like to well I would

like to hear from someone from
the Zuni tribe to see if if if

we had let's say an example of
how someone from China went to

the Olmecs and they could read
or things look familiar.

It'd be interesting to see there
is a reference in here from a

soldier from I believe it was
World War 2 was very was able to

learn the Japanese language
easily and it it seems easier

than normal.
Again that could be coincidence

but it it's it's an interesting
it's an interesting tie so other

similarities and again we're
we're we're drawing a wide bow

here but it's interesting So
other similarities that are

brought up is the their
appearance itself as we

discussed with you know the
Olmecs and the Chinese the there

have been well according to the
book there are people who have

travelled abroad who say the
Zuni resemble the Japanese

especially those from Kyoto or
relocated Tibetans.

So that that's that's
interesting.

The the height of the people, at
least according to the book, at

least two early studies of the
Zuni of Zuni remains revealed

distinctive changes in the
skeletal measurements suggesting

new additions to the gene pool
about the 13th century.

So about that 1350 where there
were so many disasters, it it

possibly there was an
introduction of a new people.

They also mentioned that the
Japanese skulls and skeletons

have characteristics,
characteristics consistence with

those changes, the broader and
smaller crania and a shorter

statue stature.
Sorry.

So again, without any genetic
evidence, we're making an

assumption here.
The Zuni people for some reason

their skeletons changed.
Why?

We don't know and we can't say.
All we could do is guess the one

thing that I found was
interesting in this that I would

have never thought of before.
I would have never even

approached the topic.
But they discussed teeth, and

apparently teeth have
characteristics.

I had no idea why not.
But according to this, one study

found that the Zuni dental
features, even though they're

distinctive in some ways,
closely fit more to A to

California Native Americans then
with their neighbors in the

Southwest.
And there are also studies that

have shown three modern dental
features that are clearly

separate from other Native
Americans and might be explained

with a mixture with the
Japanese.

So again, characteristics within
the teeth that are different

from other Native Americans.
So it's it's another tie and and

here's an interesting one what
what is referred to as the Zuni

disease and I know if you really
want to hear me butcher

something it.
Can't be worse than anything

I've done now, Mes
mesengiopathic

glomerulonephritis all about
that.

So if you pronounce it right or
not, I don't want it, no.

But what they were calling the
Zuni disease, the Zuni disease,

it's referred to, and they have
a high, an exceptionally high

incidence of this disease which
causes chronic renal failure,

ultimate leading to end stage
renal disease and death.

So it's higher than there.
There were some statistics, but

these statistics could be
decades old so I didn't actually

jot them down.
But the disease itself is also

reported to be common in some
oriental populations, per the

book and best described in Japan
and Singapore.

So it's interesting that there
is this disease that is not

unique, but it but is is
characteristic of the Zuni that

also has ties to possibly
Japanese ancestry.

I might have found a easier way
of pronouncing that chronic

kidney disease.
Who nailed it?

Man, you're pretty.
Good.

I'm looking it up and this is a
CKD chronic kidney disease.

But I I did find that
interesting if I I'm more

scientific where I'm trying to
tie things to something

substantial and and this is
where I'm going to, you know.

Again in her book she says you
know, time will tell, she might

be wrong, but it it it, it
requires further further

research and she mentions that
one of her ideas for this came

from when she was looking at the
Yin Yang symbol.

And again Yin Yang.
You think Chinese but she found

resemblances to a Zumi chart on
Zumi religion.

Now I was searching for the
chart or something to tie it

together.
I didn't necessarily find it,

but if that's what started her
on her journey, I applaud her.

If there was some sort of, you
know, interest there.

There was also resemblances to a
chrysanthemum which is one of

their which is important in
their religion and the Rosetta

from from Japan.
And I've I've shared an image

with you that you can you can
put in the notes.

Again, it looks similar, but
it's a flower.

So again you could draw a bow
there that there are some

connections or it could just be
a flower.

And the last thing I would I
would find that's interesting is

the and and I don't know how
true this is.

I was trying to find it, but
according to the book there is a

petroglyph that that was found,
you know in in the region and

it's basically a box with a plus
sign in the middle of it.

So just just a box with a cross.
And this is no it's a it's a

petroglyph that was found in the
region and the the tie there is

the Zuni word.
I'll butcher this Taiya TA.

Apostrophe IYA means a place of
planting.

So in Japanese TA is a rice
field and in Zuni IYA or LLIYA

refers to a place.
So although this this little

symbol which is a square and
plus sign in Japanese, that is a

symbol for a rice field and the
Zuni word is quite possibly TA

meaning rice and the place you
plant rice even though they

didn't have rice, it would have
been more or less corn.

But the theory goes is that it's
possible that the word for a

place of planting might really
have originated for a rice

field.
At least that's the that's

what's interesting to me that
that's that's that's the the and

and again that that's, that's
what I would have was really

hoping to find an actual picture
of this petroglyph to see if I

could find it.
Yeah, I'm looking now.

I couldn't find it.
And to me it's very interesting

that, like, if you're talking
about a place of planting,

there's also a discovery that
could be a symbol for a rice

field and the place for planting
could be literally the breakdown

of the Japanese word for rice
and a place for planting.

So it's it's it's an interesting
discussion.

Unfortunately, there's not a lot
of evidence and there's also

discussion about well, if you
know, if the Zumi people wanted,

you know, at this point, you
know, back when these these

thoughts were were these
theories were being, you know,

created or or or or thought
about, there really wasn't a lot

of genetic testing.
But today there quite possibly

be some genetic testing to see
if there is any kind of Japanese

heritage.
But for me, the thought of the

story of whether it's Buddhist
monks or whoever it might have

been who left the region,
traveled across the Pacific,

landed possibly on the shores of
California, and then made their

way into the desert, or what we
know today is the desert met

people or maybe they settled.
Maybe these could have been one

of the groups of people that
settled.

Maybe they were the planters.
You know, maybe they were the

people who planted the seed or
they were growing.

And then, you know, whether it
was calamity or something made

them move forward.
Eventually they just adapted

each other's cultures until they
settled where they are today.

That's so this isn't saying that
the the Zuni are Japanese, but

there was a heavy Japanese
influence and maybe integration.

It's it's, it's more or less the
theory that there was

integration and if so that would
explain the the changes to the

name or the, I'm sorry, not the
name the the language.

So it could have been had the
influence as to why the language

is so unique and you know also
to let's say some of the genetic

changes that that occurred or
they believed to have occurred

since like say 1350.
There were also references in

the book to pottery and possibly
you know, glaze pottery and

smelting and things like that.
But again, I personally believe

that humans are very smart, all
humans are very smart and I

think eventually people will
discover technology.

So I can't say and I don't
necessarily believe that we have

to 111 culture has to rely on
another culture to come up with

pottery or smelting.
I I think people are very

intelligent, you know, So I I
didn't really include stuff like

that, but I tried to at least
include some things that that

are there's something to think
about.

You know, here's something to
think about.

I just sent you an image of the
flag of Zuni, New Mexico.

I'll put that in the show notes.
That's very interesting.

Square flag with a circle with a
plus sign in the middle.

So.
So I just sent you a screenshot

of an excerpt from the book that
shows what you know of.

Of course, this is from a
typographical image, but it's

just a square with a plus, so
that's interesting.

Did you the?
Was that text or did you e-mail?

Oh, there's.
I got it.

There's Oh, yeah.
Oh, so it's like the full

square.
It's a full square but but but

we're talking about this is from
a book not a drawing so when I

was looking online there could
be different style you know

stylizations but but it's still
it's it's that's interesting the

the the the Chrysanthemum and
the Rosetta.

The the Rosetta is very
important and I I'm not going I

don't have my notes these notes
in front of me but I know at one

point I think it was in World
War 2 the the rifles were

stamped with the Rosetta and at
at the end of the war when the

one of the terms is like you
know what when World War 2 is

when there was the admission of
defeat.

One of the requests is that
before we turn our guns and we

have to grind off the Rosetta
from the guns because that was

because it's just, it's such an
important aspect of the Japanese

culture.
And and again there is this

Chrysanthemum is I believe what
they were calling it, which is a

flower and a design which very
closely represents the Rosetta.

But again, it you know, I think
all cultures, if you're going to

draw a flower, you could, you
know, you might be able to get

to the same drawing or similar
drawing.

Yeah, I as soon as I saw that
symbol with this square and a

cross it, it made me think of
like a rune more than like a

Japanese symbol, like a not like
a Nordic symbol or a rune.

I couldn't find anything and and
if that was just a petroglyph by

itself to me, again you could
read into a certain you could

read into a lot of this.
But the fact that the word for

rice in Japanese is TA and in
Zuni let's say iya is a place.

So you have a place for rice or
a place for planting it's.

It's so similar that it's it's
really intriguing to me, like

it's just to me, there's a a lot
of similarities here.

Or I would, and if this isn't
the answer, I would be really

interested to find out how you
know how these people's language

changed from what it was to what
it is, if everyone around them

had a common way of speaking.
You know, how did the structure

change?
Yeah, usually there's.

It may not be identical, but
there would be some bleed

through from culture to culture,
that neighbor, right?

You know, that doesn't seem like
that's the case here.

So so that's that's the the
story.

And unfortunately I have no
evidence.

I have, I have nothing.
But for me, it's the story.

It's.
The best story I ever have.

Evidence and and I love I love
the idea of of a group of people

travelling across the Pacific in
a boat and who knows when it

could have been you know 1000 AD
whenever it was who reaches the

shore and then just continues to
travel until they meet another

people and then just become one
tribe and and just integrate in

in a world today where there's
so many differences and people

are focused on differences they
found a a commonality and and

continued and that's that's
that's what I want to think.

Did the the author say where she
got these all this information

from just through her own
research?

Or did she speak to anybody
there are?

I mean, you really would need to
look into the book.

There are a lot of references to
a lot of other studies.

And so they're they're she does
tie on to her, tie back to a lot

of other studies that were done.
It wasn't.

It was her idea and she tried to
find commonalities, but she does

tie things back to other studies
that were done.

OK.
The reason why I'm asking is so

knowing what you were going to
talk about today, I I sat down

and was working today and put on
a podcast.

From 2020, I don't remember the
name of the podcast.

I'll I'll put the link in there.
It was like our ancient earth or

something like that was the name
of the the podcast and he sat

down and did an interview with
Clifford Mahuti who was a a Zuni

elder and at this point like he
had spoken to this guy a few

times so he they had a a
rapport.

And at this point, this Clifford
Mahuti was basically booted out

of the council because he was
starting to spread information

about the Zuni, the tribes,
their origins and all this

information that the council
didn't think should be given

out.
And he's he's even saying that,

like, at that point.
Now he he passed away in 2022 so

this is just a couple years
before he died this interview

but he said that even in in 2020
the the Zuni, the Pueblo Zuni in

New Mexico only practice about
20% of the like the the rituals

and the celebrations that they
did even 100 years ago.

So like their culture was just.
Not even being forgotten, it was

just not being shared at all.
So when the Spanish came through

and they basically most of the
Zuni converted to Christianity

and it was not, nobody wanted to
talk about their their, their

past.
So one of the things he said was

that a lot of what people know
about the Zuni is all BS.

Because the elders and the, you
know, the the the ones who came

up before who were telling the
how do you, how do you say it?

The wide eyes, the the white
man, the wide eyes, they would

just tell them stories, Whatever
they wanted to hear, whatever

got them out of their face.
They just make up the story and

tell them so a lot of the
information that we have about

their customs and their culture
is all made-up.

The reason why they want him to
step down or that why they they

kind of booted him out is what
he did mention stuff about.

Let's see where do I have it
here And my notes are very all

over the place.
History of the Japanese and

Chinese living with Zuni as
early as the 1200s with Chinese,

and I think with the 15 or 16
hundreds that their first

mention of the Japanese.
There's actually a book.

By one of the one of the Zuni I
think he was Zuni.

His name's John Rushkamp Junior
and it's Chinese symbols in Zuni

petroglyphs.
So it's known like in the guy's

like, what do you mean?
Like I'm gonna have to get that.

Book.
Yeah, me too.

He's like, you mean like like
they look Chinese.

He's like, no, no, it's it's
Chinese Petroglyphs.

Well, it but the.
NPS, the National Park Service

and the government bought all
this land, he said.

When he was a kid it wasn't
uncommon for him to be out in

the in the desert and there just
be people out there with guns

just shooting the petroglyphs
off the rocks just blasting the

faces of the rocks off to just
eliminate the the culture.

So I'll I'll say before you move
forward there is a part of this

book does touch on it but I
wouldn't do with justice about

how the Spanish came in and
eventually there was an uprising

and and that's not that's a
story but it's it's a it's a

story that I wouldn't do with
justice.

So there people would if you're
interested look for that story

which I didn't touch on the, the
other interesting I think is I

didn't mention glazed pottery
and smelting.

Well, one of the items that was
mentioned in the book is that

you know or I shouldn't say
smelting like metalwork is that

yes, this was, you know, this
was prevalent in China at the

time, but there was no
connection to China other than a

reference that hey, the Chinese
were were were practicing this.

And so it was known so that that
knowledge could have been shared

to other cultures in that
region.

And and if, if the Chinese, if
there were Chinese who came over

and were integrating and
interacting with the Olmecs, I

mean that's only, you know well
a couple 100 miles difference

from New Mexico to the Four
Corners region, it's not that

far.
And you know, so and the Olmecs

were in South America, right?
I think there was South America.

Yeah.
So that that's a little bit

further distance but that's
still they they may but there's

also been there's also well I
don't I don't want to say

there's evidence but there's
there's been talk that I've

heard of could be rumors or
could be people trying to to

make something that there's not
that that says there could have

been a trade route.
You know, if like you said, if

somebody's going to to come
across the Pacific, it really

wouldn't be much for people to
go north.

No.
And I, I mean I find it hard to

believe with even what evidence
we, you can kind of find that

there was not trade that that
North America and South America

were just completely unknown.
You know, I mean they were, they

obviously they were seafaring
nations, seafaring civilizations

way earlier than we think.
And I always try to, you know,

when people question that, I
just think.

You know, if if we've been
around for what we think 40,000

years, Homo sapiens, right, 40
to 50,000 years, somewhere on it

we think.
And we're just getting

technological advancements in
the last 200 years.

What?
What were we doing for the 1st

39,000 years?
Yeah, and we couldn't have been

that stupid for that long and
survive and and that's where and

that's where you think about,
you know, as far as what we

know.
So if you think about the

Japanese culture and how they
had this tradition of making

swords where they would bend
metal, that's what we know.

And they were masters to a point
where other people couldn't

necessarily figure out or
duplicate it, but they were.

And and So what else happened
that we have no idea what

happened and where?
Where did the knowledge go?

Or it could have been just as
just simply maybe, maybe there

was something devastating that
happened.

Yeah, I I didn't hear that.
I'm I'm, I'm going to have to

take a look at that book.
I'm gonna have to look that up.

I was trying very hard not to go
away from this necessarily,

'cause it was, it was, it was a
lot to chew on.

And I have to give her credit.
If she was thinking about this

in the 1960s and today, you
can't really say much.

But back then, I mean, I
couldn't imagine if she was

talking to people about this.
They must have.

They must have thought, you
know.

Who knows what they would have
thought.

Or maybe they're more open to it
today.

You can't say.
You can't.

You can't.
You can't change narrative now.

So the reason Mahoodi was really
in trouble with the with the

other elders wasn't stuff about
the Japanese, Like they didn't

really, they don't really want
their secrets known.

But what he was really talking
more about is that the Zuni do

in their in their rituals, so in
their in their memories, because

that's how they continue their
stories, in their rituals.

They do.
There is evidence that points to

knowledge of the great flood.
They also say that we're in

well, probably just ending.
We're probably just beginning

the 5th world at this point.
So we're in the fourth era at at

this time when he did this
interview and this is this is

something that is shared between
the Zuni and the Hopi.

The story that of their what I
heard their the story of the

beginning of man, beginning of
the Zuni from the Hopi.

No, from the Zuni, from his from
the Zuni elder.

That he didn't say anything
about the twin gods, which I

did.
The he, he, he, he, he, you to.

I'm going to say they didn't.
I didn't find any specific

names.
I did find the Ahiyuta.

I didn't find anything about
them or he didn't mention them,

but what he did mention was in
This is going to sound familiar.

Lemuria Pan?
Yeah.

Really.
Yeah.

So what he was talking about was
that Lemuria or Moo.

It's also known as Pan.
It's known as was inhabited by.

Androgynous beings who are not
human.

The island sank and as they knew
it was coming.

So as the island sank they
scattered and they went to the

all the continents, right?
Because Lemuria is supposedly in

like the Indian and Pacific
Ocean like a a huge landmass and

they they some stories actually
say the Easter Island was a part

of it or part of that island
chain.

So a little tie back to last
week.

As the inhabitants fled, though
many of the children were lost,

they drowned.
They they fell to the sea, and

these children became all of the
creatures of the sea, dolphins

and whales and fish, And then by
the time they got to land.

They they basically made it to
what he believes is like the

Yucatan Peninsula and then it
spread from there that the

people from Lemuria even settled
on Mount Shasta and then there

was the somehow, I'm not not
sure how because he it's kind of

kind of scattered his story, but
he also talks about the star

people and how the star people
came to help and created.

Like when you see these
petroglyphs of the long

elongated skull, there's like
people with like long skulls or

very like squat the beings that
those were the either the star

people themselves or enhanced or
hybridized creatures to help

assist from the from lemuria to
land to to like human life.

And then doesn't really say what
happened to him other than no.

But this is not allowed to talk
to me, right?

So this is what Mahoodi
believes, if I'm saying that.

Correctly, right.
Yeah, Mahoodi.

And then the guy did ask.
Oh, he he also mentioned that

after the the Zuni and the other
tribes and the other humans

basically got their.
Sea legs, right?

They they knew what they were
doing.

There was a catastrophe.
And the inner Earth people, also

known as the Ant people, went
back underground and these were

like 2 to 4 foot tall beings.
The shorter ones were kind of

translucent and the taller ones
were kind of reddish.

And this guy's like, what do you
mean by like, what did they look

like?
And he's like take a a close up

picture of a of an Ant he's like
and then compare it to an alien.

He's like that's what you got.
And he's like this isn't

something that's new, like all
these UFO sightings and all

these things that happened, he
goes we already know about this.

He said.
They're they're

interdimensional.
They live within the Earth, but

they're interdimensional and we
just know this and they're

pissed because we're screwing up
the planet and if they come

back, we're in trouble.
Now this was in 2020.

I was just going to say that was
in 2020.

This is just at the beginning of
of the pandemic and he's like,

they're going to come back and
they're, you know, they we have

some communication, but they're
pissed.

And this guy says well-being,
that the Zuni had a, you know,

great understanding of the stars
and the sky.

He's like, is there anything you
can tell me about?

Stonehenge like structures in
the Americas that were built by

the Zuni and he basically said I
can't tell you, I've been

forewarned not to get that
information out and my life has

been threatened.
Somebody doesn't want to.

Talk, somebody doesn't want to
talk.

And now and this guy like I, he
seemed pretty with it like, I

mean he was like 67 at the time.
Well, I mean, I could also,

playing devil's advocate, if
you're like on a council and you

start talking about how we don't
know our traditions and, you

know, there's people and and I
could understand how they might

say, hey, you need to step down.
Yeah, that's that kid.

But there's what?
There's well, the Hopi people.

Don't the Hopi have the same?
Yeah, the Hopi people have the

like the star people and the the
Ant people and they they have

very similar stories, but this
is coming from the Zuni and

they're like, they just don't
they they want basically all

these stories squashed and
probably because.

And from what?
He didn't say this specifically,

but the the gist of it I got is
it hurts their profits.

Like they can make money right
now and this is going to hurt

their profits.
So you got to shut up.

Or they just want to keep their
knowledge.

Maybe.
Maybe they're the chosen people.

Maybe, hey, they're not.
They'll tell her secrets.

They're.
They're not even using it

themselves, apparently, from
what he's saying, like they

don't like if they do a ritual
he's like.

They just, he called.
He was calling it Wham bam,

thank you ma'am Ceremonies.
He's like they come and they say

a couple words they they flash
some stuff and they they're like

they're not even doing the going
through the motions anymore.

Like they don't even want to
perpetuate it.

Interesting there there are
there are images in this book of

of certain I I don't want to say
like I'd I'd say gear like

outfits and things that they
would wear for ceremonies,

ceremonial outfits.
But I didn't really touch on

ceremonies other than from the
book set is that they are

continued.
But again, this book is older,

but what I think is interesting.
Very very limitedly.

And what I what I also, one of
the things I found was

interesting is that let's just
put it in perspective.

If she started having this idea
in the 60s, it came out in the

80s.
There's a book about it.

I've never heard of this.
I've never heard of it.

So what?
You know.

So if this is something that is
actually documented and printed,

if you're talking about stories
and and and just people's

telling tales, who knows what
what what stories were lost or

you know or or what rituals they
used to perform?

Yeah, and and even he says like,
I don't know that he's or that

he was trying to save, you know,
certainly that, you know

there's, you know any of this
stuff is real, but it's it's the

way it's passed down from
through their their stories.

And it could mean anything.
But even at that, they don't

want it.
They don't want it shared,

right?
And the Hopi?

The Hopi I don't.
I have a map here but I don't

have it highlighted.
But the Hopi are in the region,

right?
The Hopi are, yeah, yeah,

they're in Arizona, New Mexico,
Nevada and Utah, I believe,

right.
And and like this story, at

least their story that according
to this is that eventually

people went north-south and
east.

So it could be remnants of the
same cultures, it could be in

those stories, it could be the
you know.

And it it's so like what What's
the what are the words I'm

actually looking for here?
How do you prove or how do you

if those stories are being
eliminated?

Other than if you could do some
kind of DNA testing, of course

they should be similar DNA.
How fine of a test you need to

do to find where the differences
are, you know?

I mean if we can still find
Neanderthal DNA in in current

humans, you know it, would it be
that hard to find?

You know Chinese or Japanese
DNA?

Would it even show up?
Has has it been too long?

Is it?
Is it or not enough?

But you think after thousands,
10s of thousands of years, we

still have Neanderthal DNA.
You know, you think the test

would have been run by now?
I would think so.

If, if.
Well, if, if you're making a

such a stretch that has cultural
implications and especially

today.
You know individuals may have

taken tests.
You know individual, let's say,

say ancestry tests.
But as a as a people's, I don't

think there has at least not
that I'm aware of an actual

study done to do.
Let's just say if you're if

you're thinking about a
statistical, you know portion of

the population to see what is
there and you know and then even

try to connect it to other parts
of Japan or the region.

Well a quick search shows
something someone definitely

confirming the fact that DNA
testing proves that the various

Pueblo peoples are related to
Anasazi.

Now that that was my first
result off of the Internet, so

that could be completely wrong,
but it it would.

It would seem that there should
be some similarities there.

Well and and and like this story
story says that there were they

were traveling before they
settled.

They were traveling and they met
according now this is according

to, according to the book,
according to their their legends

that they met various peoples
and some of those were you know

integrated or they or I I
shouldn't say integrated with

the zoning, but maybe they
merged.

So it happened and it had you
know and and that could explain.

A lot of different things as far
as population moves or you know,

what happened, why some people
left and some people, they

shouldn't even say left.
Maybe they just moved, just

moved.
Well, if they were searching

for, what would they call it?
The middle.

The middle.
So they were searching for a

specific place and they're not
going to be happy until they

find it, or they find what
matches what they think they're

looking for.
And then once they find out that

spot that's that's where they
stop moving.

But until that point, they're
just gonna move around until

they find the spot they like.
And and let's just say that if

if there's all these legends
about all these earthquakes and

natural disasters, then, you
know, I would put faith in it.

Because if you're in a spot
where you're settled and you

have homes and you have crops
and there's water, something's

gonna make you move.
And and and and and.

That would have to be something
pretty serious.

Now, I didn't look into that
volcanic eruption.

That's kind of interesting.
Well, when I was in Arizona a

couple years ago, I mean, we did
hike in an extinct volcano and a

lot of the buttes and mountains
there in the high desert from

Flagstaff N are just the
remnants of volcanoes.

So yeah, I could absolutely see
that being, you know, being the

case.
And and I I also try to always

put it in perspective that.
Let's just say 10,000 years ago,

if if I'm correct on this, that
there were, let's just say I

don't say woolly mammoths, but
rhinos and giraffes.

There were.
Other America didn't look the

same way, and that's 10,000
years ago, which seems like a

lot, but we're talking about a
story from a few thousand years

ago.
So what?

What was it like a few thousand
years ago compared to today?

So it could have been.
A beautiful landscape where

there was a lot of lot of food,
lot of water, lot of animals.

So in order for you to not think
you found your destination, it

would have to be something
pushing.

Yeah?
Now it's interesting that you

mentioned woolly mammoths,
because I did in that same

interview they did talk about
and I got to look into this to

see if it's true.
Or this may not be true at all,

just in in this interview, but
they did talk about where in

Russia.
So this had to be Back in 2020,

maybe 2019, they uncovered
remnants of a settlement from

early human and I.
They didn't say if it was Homo

sapien or if it was Neanderthal
for someone else, but they were

just saying hunter gatherers.
So they'd not.

They're nomadic.
They don't stay in one place,

but they found they they were
finding these small structures

that were made from mammoth
bones, but then they found this

one that was made from the bones
of 60 mammoths, now mammoths.

Are huge and they said this
thing was was massive in scale

and they they don't.
It's similar to like mine

culture where they would build
these giant structures for these

like feasting rituals and it was
similar they said, But I didn't

look into it.
I mean I just heard it in

passing in that interview, but
it it I kind of wrote it down

like I got to look into this.
But if they were hunting

mammoths and then taking their
bones and building some kind of

structure out of 60 mammoths,
like how big?

I didn't see the picture, but
how big does this structure have

to be?
And it's another instance of a

culture that supposedly didn't
do these things.

But now we're finding that, oh,
well, they did.

They did do these things.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So that's because it's all what

we think we know.
Right.

It's all, oh, they couldn't have
done that because we don't have

a picture of it.
Or Oh well, today that wouldn't

even mean anything.
That wouldn't even mean that

this was in like, I think this
is in like Siberia.

So it was, it was kind of
preserved in the ice.

But imagine if they did
something like that in the

South, in the southwest, but
they were using wood or stone

and it's been destroyed.
Yeah, I'd be destroyed.

Yeah, Well, if you look at the
the Choco, is it the Choco

Cavern?
I should know this.

That's where the Anasazi is.
Oh, it's just the the the huge

cavern that has its own clouds
and there's like massive

structures.
There there is A and I I believe

it's a National Park, but it's a
Chaco cavern.

If you look at some of the
structures out there, they're

just what you What you find now
are is impressive.

And if you think about a people
that were building, let's just

say they were building out of
using mud and dirt mortar, then

what would be left?
I mean, the Cliff, the Cliff

dwellings are there, yeah.
But you don't.

There's not a lot of erosion.
I mean, they're slowly going

away slowly, yeah.
And I was in some in Walnut

Canyon, some of the the the
Pueblo Cliff dwellings in

Arizona and that's the Walnut
Canyon National Monument where

you can hike down at the Canyon,
You come around a corner.

There's all these structures
that were built in the cliffs

and they were really cool and
fairly well preserved to the

part point where there's still
some of the original timber left

too.
That was really, really cool to

see.
There's also, I want to say I I

can't remember where I saw it.
I want to say it was in England.

There, there, there's been some,
there's a YouTube channel and

I'll have to find it.
You can put it in the notes.

Where there are some some folks
out there who are still going

around and looking at some of
these older sites and and a lot

of the henges that you might
find from wood a woodhenge.

So you don't really find
anything other than you come

across a hole.
And the only reason you know

it's a hole is because there's
different dirt in it.

Like the dirt looks different,
But you would never, you would

never even know it was there if
you couldn't find these spots

where it looks like they had
posts and some of them are

massive, like they've built
cities on top of some of them.

And it's like whole
neighborhoods were once these

these Stonehenge or these
Woodhenges, and you can kind of

see where the outlines are,
'cause they're still like maybe

there's like a stone structure
in the center and that's still

there like a park.
And then if they do sound

penetrating your radar, they can
see where the the soil, the

ground is different underneath
it and they're massive, these

structures.
Yeah and and so so you think

about and that's and that's what
we would we talk about now and

and you think about how long ago
a a a Woodhenge would have been.

So even if you're talking 1000
years ago or 2000 years ago,

it's the same time, it's just a
different people in a different

location.
So there could have been

different structures and we
would never know because now in

the Southwest it's more desert
like.

So who knows what would have
happened like that?

You know that erosion could have
just taken it away, where in all

the like like Siberia, ice or
snow could have covered it.

And and in these other climates,
dirt just covers it.

Well, think about how many times
we're out on our travels and we

see an old house like we like.
It's been nine years.

Every year we've gone up to the
same two parks in the fall.

Like, I I pulled up the photos
every year, right?

And there's we came back a
different way this year than we

have in a few years.
And there's a couple old

buildings that are just almost
gone that were standing two

years ago.
That's that's a that's a modern

house that's just gone thousands
of years later.

There's not going to be much
left unless it's stone.

But even that's going to erode
and get buried, and you have to

know where to look.
And.

And how would you know?
Except for stories, yeah.

Yeah.
And and if you right that's

that's the only way you're gonna
know.

So it's it's it to me, it's just
it's fascinating to think that

people still believe a narrative
exclusively based on just what

we know.
Well, this has to be it, because

that's what we know.
It's like, well, you don't

really know.
Like if you look at Stonehenge,

well, they the the stones came
from a different spot.

And if they've identified that,
OK, you know that, but you have

no idea how they they got them
there or when they moved them or

really what when it was when or
why just don't they're so right.

Why?
You don't know.

Yeah.
I mean, this guy was saying

this.
Mahuti was saying that he he

says you think he goes, you
think the Egyptians built those

pyramids.
He goes, no they were there when

they got there.
Like this guy was all over the

like he had information about
everything and I was like, it's

it was really cool.
I'll send you a link to it.

I'll pull the the podcast and
I'll send you a link to it.

It was it was really cool.
But it's just it goes to show

that we don't know and we only
know really what we're allowed

to know or what the narrative
says we're supposed to know.

And if you go against that then
you get shot down.

You get called a nut job.
You don't get funding for your

research and if we're, I mean it
doesn't just happen here it

happens all over the place
anywhere where there was you

know indigenous people and now
you know it's it happens

everywhere that if you try to
change that that narrative now

and you're taking away you know
rights or beliefs or a culture

whether you're trying to help or
not.

It's you get shut down if it's
not the the narrative that

either that culture wants you to
believe or the culture that's

taking it over wants you to
believe.

Whoever's got the stronger pull
in that situation, if if you're

trying to tell, even if it's the
truth, something different,

you're going to get shut down.
History is written by the

victors, right?
Well, anymore by the, by the

richest.
Or the bullet that's usually

usually evident.
Whoever's got the most go.

Right.
So it was interesting.

It was an interesting story.
I'm glad I finally read it.

I've I've.
Had this.

I've had the book for a little
bit now, a couple of years, and

I pick it up and I put it down.
So I'm glad.

I actually I actually read
through it now.

I guess start your next book.
I have another couple of things

here.
Cool, but a book An actual.

An actual.
Big book I don't know about.

Yeah, take some time and do
something fun.

Yeah, it's it's fun though.
I mean, it's it's, I I like

doing the research, 'cause
that's how you learn.

And it it keeps me off of TV.
It keeps me from doing dumb

stuff.
And you know, even if what I,

even if what I learn winds up
changing later because new

information comes, it's worth it
because that's that's how you

learn.
You know you can only learn what

you have put in front of you and
then make your own decisions.

Yeah, I agree.
I mean, I, I well, again, we're

different, 'cause I just like
this story.

Yeah, well, I mean, I like the
information too, but I'm a big

fan of bunch of people got in a
boat.

How many people?
I don't know, 20.

How many people are gonna fit in
a boat?

Yeah, you figured in in 1000 AD,
How big were the boats?

I don't know.
So boats left, flew, came across

the Pacific and then decided to
travel through the desert.

I think that's a really
interesting story.

The boats could have been big.
We don't know.

Could have been no.
You know, they just because they

were made out of wood doesn't
mean they weren't big.

Again, what do we not know?
There's a lot we don't know.

There's a lot we don't know, but
that's all we know for this

episode.
Yeah, we've been talking a

while.
That's true.

You.
You didn't think you're going to

be able to fill an episode with
that?

That was.
Yeah, was good.

Parts of it were very academic
and hey, we got a smart

audience, so that's I'm not
worried about.

That well, just, you know, I
don't want this to sound wrong

but it was it was academic and
some of it felt dry and.

You know, reading about the
formations of teeth never wasn't

planning on that.
So some of it was, you know, a

little bit of a push or easy if
you just kind of glanced at it.

Yeah, but yeah, but it was a
good story.

It was a good story.
And that's that's what it's all

about.
Well, that's all.

I don't.
I didn't really do much this

episode.
I just listened to a an

interview with a elder and then
listened to you talk.

So I got nothing left.
I got nothing much either 'cause

I'm done talking, all right, so
I'll put the links to some like

I got the link to the book.
I'll put that in there.

So if anybody's interested in in
looking at it, I don't know if

it's a hard copy only it may be,
But and then I found some links

to as you were talking, I was
trying to pull links on some

stuff.
So I'll throw some links down

the bottom and you can do your
own research if you want to

learn more about the Zuni and
thank you for listening.

If you guys want to get in
contact with us, it is podcast

at primitiveintelligence.com.
Oh, there's Instagram.

I do have Instagram.
I'm throwing up some taking some

clips of the podcasts and doing
some digital art and then

overlaying the digital art with
the clips and then put them up

just to like little short
things.

But.
So put a picture of the original

monkey in there.
Oh yeah, he did send me that

picture.
Is he in your shop there or in

your In your?
He's in the office.

Yeah.
Yeah, he should.

Yeah, I wouldn't be able to show
it to you on video because I'd

have to turn this thing around.
You should put a little shelf

behind you and put him up there.
I'll come back, yeah, come back

there.
Stare at me?

Yeah, yeah, I'll put a picture
of him in the show notes too.

So that's going to do it for
this week.

See ya.
See you later.

The.