ep. 512 - The Saga of the German Preacher Who Rides a Donkey

You are listening to the
Primitive Intelligence podcast,

episode 512, The Saga of the
German Pastor Who Rides a

Donkey.
You like that?

I like that a lot.
The funny thing is, that's a lot

of visuals.
That's a true story, actually.

So this week is a little bit
different.

This is not an unsolved mystery.
This isn't about UFOs or Uaps.

It's not paranormal.
It's just an extraordinary story

and it's kind of a personal
story to me because this is,

it's a family story and you
know, some of this you and I

have talked about who we're
going to talk about today.

Yeah, well, you know me, I'm,
I'm all for a good story And and

his story is pretty, pretty
amazing.

And it's more amazing now that I
the research I did yesterday.

If I look tired, it's because I
was up until 3:00 this morning

translating German text.
Let's get this story.

This is the story of my great,
great grandfather, the Reverend

Philip Frederick Zitzelman, who
came here from Germany to be a

Lutheran missionary.
And the story is incredible.

I stopped trying to organize,
organize, organize, organize my

notes because it's.
I've got so much books and books

and books and books and
newspaper clippings and all

kinds of stuff.
So we're gonna we're going to

talk about that.
Do you have anything for this

episode?
Oh, you're just along for?

I do not.
I'm.

I'm a passage you're along for.
That's cool.

Got a little tea today, and it's
kind of been miserable the past

two days, so it's a good tea
day.

Alright, so no more yapping
about what the episode's going

to be about Episode 512 of the
Primitive Intelligence Podcast

starts.
No, there you go.

It it's funny, I've listened to
old episodes and when you

started doing the now, it was
always like now, now in the past

couple of weeks, you've just
been going now.

Yeah, I don't.
I I don't.

I honestly don't even remember.
It's been so many years how he

did it.
In the beginning it was funny,

but it's all good.
It was mostly from what I

remember.
Like you would just point at me

like now.
OK.

Well, it's I, I it's different
when we're in the same room

because you kind of it's easier
to pick up on those cues like

you know what I'm about ready to
say you can jump on it, but

there's just a little delay in
the audio between me and you and

onto the server.
So a couple of the times it's

been like like a long pause and
then now, but it's all good.

So I before we started, I've got
all kinds of I didn't know how I

was going to do this because my
notes are so discombobulated.

So I actually hooked up my, my,
my laptop to my main monitor,

which I usually have off while
we're recording.

So if I look really washed out
for this episode, if you're

watching it, that's why I'm not
so not I'll.

It's just, you know, if I turn
that off, come on.

See that.
That looks a little better,

right?
It's just this monitor is huge

and I usually turn it off
because it it drains this

computer when we're trying to
record.

So let's just jump right into
this.

Like I said in the in the
opening there, this is the story

of Philip Frederick Zitzelman.
He's my great, great grandfather

and he came here from Germany as
a Lutheran missionary.

And my family never really
shared the stories of our of our

past, of our, of our family.
So all I knew as a kid was that

he was from Germany, he was a
preacher and he came here to

Texas 1st and that's that's all
I knew.

But as I started here.
To America.

In Texas, Yeah, to America.
And he came through Texas 1st.

And this was before Ellis
Island.

I mean he was here in the 1850s
so I don't know how that worked

back then.
You just you just went.

I guess the research on this I'm
pulling from a ton of sources.

I'm not going to quote each one
as I go through them, but I will

give a list of the resources
that I'm using cause and not all

of them have links.
So in the show notes they'll

just be a list of books and if
you if you're interested in any

of this or maybe your family was
involved in in you know this

whole you know region and you
know the the Lutheran ministry

back in the 1800s and you want
to find some information these

are good places to start.
So a few of them I I have in

hand that are either digital
hard copy or a combination of

the two.
So the first one was the

portrait and biographical record
of Lackawanna County was first

printed in 1897.
That is one of those two books

that I own that I got I think
from a books and that's still

around.
So I was looking at it.

So it's I think it's an offshoot
of Amazon, but it's physical

copies of books like.
Collector's is is that the one

that has the the atlases that in
there too the the maps of some

of the I I I bought a OK so
there there's a difference.

So there's a few of that were
that were written about the

area.
Yeah, Yeah.

So there's this is I believe
Volume 2 and there there are

other volumes.
I think the other volumes have

those maps because you sent me a
pictures of a couple of them

from like the early 18.
Yeah, I actually, years ago I

stumbled upon a it was from 1873
and it was a hand painted Atlas

map of like my neighborhood.
And this is, this is so.

I mean, I can't say it's a long
time ago, but it's at least a

decade I think.
And it was for like $20.

I'm like, well, yeah, I I for
$20 I could get a Atlas page of

of like of like my town hand
painted from 1873.

Now if you go out and look for
it, just a page with Ronnie,

like a hundred 100 bucks or
something like that.

Some of this stuff is pretty
expensive.

But this is one of those books.
I've got two of them.

The one is covers more of my
grandmother's side of the

family, Not my, not my, not her
husband's side.

So those two books are both over
100 years old.

They're like 120 years old and I
have digital copies of those.

I try not to open them because
they're just so old and so

brutal.
But so that's that's the first

book.
Then I've got the images of

America San Antonio Churches,
which is printed in 2012 and

images of America Gillespie
County 2013.

And those are mostly just the
pictures and some short stories.

Very cool book.
So if you, if you have family or

you are from Texas, those are
very cool books.

And then the Centennial
anniversary of the Zion Lutheran

Church, 1852 to 1952, There's no
data published on this.

I think it was eight, 1952 or
1953.

And this I have in digital
format only.

I don't even know if it's in.
I know it's not in print, but I

don't know if you can find that
one anymore.

There's also the history of the
Wilkes Barre conference from

1898, The Tejano Religion and
Ethnicity of San Antonio

19/18/21 to 1860 that was
published in 1995.

New Homes in the New Land,
German immigration to Texas

between 1847 and 1861.
That was from 1970.

San Antonio was seen through a
magic Lantern from 1978, German

pioneers in Texas from 1925, and
then the big one, that the one

that I was looking for for
years, that wasn't available

anywhere.
I can only find snippets and

I'll I'll attempt the German
pronunciation of this, but I I

know I'm going to kill it, so
I'll give it a shot.

Gershenreich there.
Ersten Deutschen Evangelich

Lutichen Synod in Texas.
I know that's wrong.

I know it's completely wrong.
I'm sorry.

It translates to the history of
the first German Evangelical

Lutheran Synod in Texas.
This book is massive.

I've seen it, LinkedIn, the
bibliographies of a lot of the

other stuff that I've read and
looked at in this time, and it

is basically the official
documentation from the the six

or so German pastor,
missionaries who went to Texas

and report it back to Germany.
And a lot of this is letters

written by my great great
grandfather back to the church.

And when I say letters written
back, I'm not talking like, hey,

it's hot here, lol and wait for
a reply.

These are chapters.
These things are they took

forever to translate because I
there's so many pages.

I was trying to do it page by
page and then reading it and

seeing where Google screwed up
and then trying to fix it and

finding other.
It took forever to do this, but

the information I got is awesome
and there's still more to come.

Also, there's several
publications from the Lackawanna

Valley area.
The one was the the the script

and truth was the name of the
newspaper this, this Scranton

Republican.
I believe there was a few that I

was able to pull articles from
that even just mentioned them.

And I've I've got files and
files and stuff.

I've got a few of them hanging
from the wall.

Actually, one of them was of my
great grandfather's business

that your mom found in an attic
that I've got hanging on my

wall.
Oh, and that that piece of that

advertisement or whatever.
Yeah, for the jewel, the jeweler

that he he was a part of, he was
a member of.

So, yes, I got some cool history
on my family here.

So to get into who he was, I'm
gonna do just a really quick

that's the wrong mouse, Two
computers, not enough sleep.

A brief history of the Zitzelman
name.

And this is just real, real
simple.

So this goes as far back as I
could find.

The the original I believe
Zitzelman was Hans Zitzelman and

the only record I could find for
him was his citizenship to

Hamburg, Germany in 1523.
So I don't know how old you have

to be to get a a certificate of
citizenship, but 1523 is a long,

long time ago somewhere and I
think I lost it in a computer

crash.
I got information from I think

it was the city of Urbendorf in
Germany from their archives and

they had him listed as a furrier
and a trapper.

And I believe that's what the
name means, because the only

link I can see to our my name in
any German word is a slang word

used back then.
And it may actually be High

German of all things.
The Sissel, which is a squirrel,

which would be a hunter or a
trapper.

So my name literally means
squirrel man, which I think is

hysterical because I got a
sister who's terrified of

squirrels.
Then we go to Erhard Zitzelman,

who was a Weaver, Michael
Zitzelman, who most likely lived

around Urbendorf.
Wolfgang Zitzelman, who was the

mayor of Urbendorf.
Andreas Zitzelman, who was a

Potter.
Erhard another Erhard who was a

Potter.
And then my family goes into

this love of just keeping the
same name in the family forever.

So Johann Jacob the first, he
was a master Potter.

Johann Jacob the second was a
well, nothing listed on what he

was, but they were talking like
1700s here. 1717 he was born

Johann Jacob the third who was a
Potter possibly and a wine

merchant and the the member of
the town court, his son Philip

Christians.
That's when is where things

start to get really interesting
'cause this is Philip

Frederick's father, now Philip
Christian.

Now imagine being a a kid in
Germany and knowing that your

father was a farmer.
He was.

He was involved in the wine
trade.

He, I think he was a grape
grower.

He was also a soldier who fought
at Waterloo against Napoleon.

I mean a little, a little
history in the family, which I

thought was just incredible when
I started reading some of the

stuff.
So then we get to my great,

great grandfather, Philip
Frederick Schitzelman.

He was born in Klebron,
Wurttenberg, Germany in 1824.

The only surviving child out of
four.

He was educated in public school
system until he attended the the

The Pilgrims Missionary No to
University of Basal in

Switzerland and then from there
he went to the missionary St.

Crochonna to be ordained and as
soon as he ordained him in like

5 or six other young pastors
were basically given ticket to

get on a boat.
You're going to America.

They had no idea what they were
in for.

They knew they were going to
Texas and.

What year was this about?
This was in I can.

I can tell you.
Not only can I tell you when it

was, I can tell you what boat he
was on.

This is in 1853.
He left from Bremen, Germany to

Galveston, TX.
It took 49 days and he was on

the ship.
It was a sailing ship called the

Francisco and somewhere I have a
picture of that boat.

I actually found a picture of it
once.

I don't know where it is.
It was like a schooner style

ship.
I was going to say from what I

remember you were you said it
actually not when you say

sailing vessel, it actually had
sails.

Yeah, 1800s.
I mean, there's no.

Yeah, it was actual actual
wooden boat with sails from

Germany to yeah.
Now, if that much of family

history wasn't enough, this
guy's life from this point on

was absolutely incredible.
Now, I know family history can

seem boring, but throughout this
story is not not boring, I don't

think.
Anyway, so 49 days, which I find

I I kind of chuckled because 49
days.

He's on a a ship called the
Francisco, and I can think of

the San Francisco 49ers.
I never I saw I was like oh

that's interesting.
So he gets to Texas.

He when they when they get
there, they're in that they go

to Houston originally and they
form the first German

evangelical Lutheran Sonata
Texas in 1851.

And to which he is he's, I think
he's the sector.

I think he's the second highest
member of the Synod and the guy

who the the pastor Braun who is
the the chief for the I forget

with his president or whatever
he's only 29 so these aren't.

He was a young man back then.
Well, yeah, but still.

I mean, they spent their whole
lives in school, in college and

being ordained like, and all of
a sudden just get thrown into

the Wild West like this is
crazy.

That's a movie I'd like to see.
Right.

So they start this, the Synod,
which is like the the ruling

council of the area.
And in in Lutheran religion

there's like every area, every
region has a Synod.

And then there is a like a
countrywide Synod.

And then there's like the main
Synod of the Lutheran religion,

which I believe is still in
Germany.

They're told by the the Saint
Crochona that, listen, you're

we're going to send it to
America.

There's some Germans there.
Find them, preach them.

That's it.
Like that's that's the

instructions they got.
So somehow they wind up going to

LaGrange.
It cost them $10 to go from

LaGrange, from Houston.
LaGrange.

They have to go with the mail.
They go with the Stagecoach that

carries the mail because that's
the only way you can get there.

All they can take are their
duffel bags, their satchels, all

their luggage.
You have to leave in Houston.

All their belongings.
They leave in Houston.

Everything they brought with
them.

They can tie four horses to the
coach and they're just along for

the ride.
Now this is where I I start

finding stuff last night because
I actually find in a letter he

sent back to Germany, his
description of this trip.

So bear with things.
I'm going to read this.

It's not super long.
I, I, I cut down a lot of it was

literally a chapter.
But this is some This gives you

an idea of the landscape that
they were going through.

In Germany, one cannot have a
complete idea of such a trip

with the male.
In Texas, there's no Rd. as

properly paved and a highway is
out of the question.

The farmers who drive their
products, cotton, etcetera, to

the city, down the trees about
the width of the road through

the forest, dragging them out of
the way while the root stumps

remain.
This is the route, the Post Rd.

But if you come to the Prairie,
the next best direction is to

cross it.
There is no bridge over the very

numerous streams, which are
mostly dry but have deep bed,

and yet the mill runs quickly
over them.

If these are full in winter, the
horses and if necessary, the

passengers can swim across.
So basically they're just

driving through wilderness on a
Stagecoach.

That's they just cut the trees
off so you can see.

But they're driving over these
stumps and over rocks.

And I mean, you picture a
Stagecoach doing that and you

just get like, I'm I'm sure
people got thrown off them all

the time.
So they finally arrive in

LaGrange, they're just about out
of money and they find that

there's no German pastors there.
They they've heard of a few

missionary retreats that have
been set up, but there there's

no one there.
So they start asking around.

They're they they find some
people and they're like, look,

there's there's Germans here,
but there's no one to preach to

them.
They get word of an opportunity

in New Brunfels and they want to
go, but no, they can't find any

passage there.
So they're like, look, we can

just walk, but someone should
stay here.

So they elect Reverend Zitzelman
to stay in LaGrange, which he's

ecstatic 'cause this guy.
And one of the things I read,

he's like, I this is not like
I'm not a a Walker like this.

I'm not very excited about this.
So he didn't want to go anyway.

So he stays in La Grange while
the other three head on foot to

New Braunfels.
So they walk and it's like, I

don't know how far it is.
I think it's said like 30 or 40

miles through the wilderness of
a state that has just become a

state.
Yeah, wilderness is the right

word.
It's just wild.

Like, not just wilderness, but
it's.

It's wild.
Not just the landscape, but

everything about it is wild.
So he stays in LaGrange, he's

got no money, He stays with a a
fellow German air named Markman

who gives him lodging.
And all they've really got in

LaGrange at this point are some
houses that aren't really

finished and a common area that
they use all the different

religions use.
So he goes to this common church

and he gives his first sermon,
thinks it goes pretty well.

He he goes back home.
This markman walks in and says,

look, you got to change the way
you're doing this.

The people here that you're
talking about faith, like they

they need morality here.
They don't need faith, they need

morality.
This is, this is the wild.

And he's kind of he's like, I I
don't care what you think this

is.
This is the religion.

This is what this is what we do
and this is what I'm going to

preach.
So he determines that it's not

so much that they need a church
there, but they need a school

because the it's just so wild
there.

No one's educated.
They're just all they can do is

survive.
So he gets a few offers, he he

goes to this.
It's called Ross Prairie and

it's it's a little more
civilized than LaGrange, but he

meets a few people there who are
from this new town of

Fayetteville, and they are rich
Americans.

Well, rich back then.
They probably have like $300.00,

and they are very interested in
retaining his services privately

between like these families and
the local, like, they'll pay for

his lodging, they'll give him
food, they'll give him a place

to teach.
They don't care if he teaches

other people, but they'll
they'll foot the bill.

So he he goes, he sends a letter
off to the leadership in

Germany, says this is probably
what we should be doing.

He says that the Americans are
more interested in our religion

than the Germans, and the
Germans here are.

It's sadly they're referred to
as rude heathens because they

just, they're so out of sorts.
They they have no religion, have

no nothing.
All everything of them has been

stripped away.
So he sends us off to Germany.

He stays there for a little
while while he waits for a

reply.
And they say, yeah, that sounds

great, but we're not doing that.
You got to go to San Antonio.

At some point he does return and
he he teaches her because I did

find one mention of him teaching
at LaGrange.

But this is pretty bad for the
Lutheran Church in that area

because he had no choice but to
leave the the Germans and the

Americans and everybody there
were like, well, they just left.

So they really had no faith to
put back into the church.

So it never their mission work
there kind of ended.

So he goes to San Antonio and
this is where I always thought

the story picked up.
I thought he went from Galveston

to San Antonio.
He gets there, he becomes the

first Lutheran pastor stationed
in San Antonio.

And this is another one of these
these points where he he gets

there, he kind of assesses the
situation and he writes this

letter, quotes, letter to
Germany to tell them what he's

up against.
And again, this is like an

entire chapter of this book is
this letter.

So I'm going to pull.
I pull out some of the the

highlights of it and he he says
with the less than tempting.

Rather worrying a prospect of
becoming a pastor in what is the

most important city in the
state.

I boarded the Stagecoach with a
heavy heart.

My last cent was spent on a
ticket.

On top of that, I borrowed a
small sum for my friend for the

same purpose.
Anyone who knows such lead

weights attached to the wings
knows how difficult flying

becomes.
Like that's the way they wrote

things back then.
Like, this is.

I guess that's all you had to
do.

He's like, I'm going to write
and just sit there and you write

out because it's written by
hand.

Yeah.
He then goes on to say the city,

as its name suggests, was built
by the Spaniards from Mexico

around 1680, Lies in the
charmingly beautiful and wide

valley.
On the east side flows the San

Antonio River, which rises about
a mile north of city limits.

On the West side is bordered by
the San Pedro.

These two incomparably beautiful
and strong river arteries unite

about 5 miles below the city,
from where they continue to flow

as the San Antonio River to the
Goliad, which is a city in Texas

and unite with the Guadalupe.
The ancient city was laid out

with within the triangle formed
by these two rivers.

Since the bountiful harvest can
hardly be achieved in those

areas without artificial
irrigation, the founders of the

city set up a magnificent
irrigation system, damming the

length of both rivers at a
distance of about 3 miles and

directing the water in ditches
across the entire length of the

valley so that gardens and
fields can be flooded about once

every 14 days.
So even this far back the the

Spaniards and the Mexicans had
come in to build.

And this is like what we're
talking about the past couple of

weeks with these lost
civilizations that the design

and the ability to irrigate and
do all these kind of advanced

things in in this wilderness,
they're able to take these two

rivers, set up a city and be a
little town in between them and

irrigate so that they don't have
to worry about about water.

So in if you've ever even
pictured Texas in your mind,

imagine this in the 1800s of how
incredible this must be, this

this new land that is barely
settled.

He does go on to say that the
separation from Mexico and Spain

and then from Texas, from
Mexico, and then Texas's

incorporation to the United
States is completely devastated.

The the Roman Catholic
infrastructure that was put in.

So there's just these abandoned
churches.

There's He says immigrants from
all sides of the wind rows,

especially Germans, have flowed
into San Antonio so that around

the time stated above, there
were about 4000 Mexicans, 3000

Germans, 2000 French, just as
many Americans, and around 2000

from other nations.
This is almost a Babble on on a

small scale.
So you've got all these people

in this little area because it's
the only place that's irrigated.

They're all speaking different
languages, they all have got

different religions and they're
just all crammed into this

little space.
Wow, that had to be a an

interesting place to live, but
it had to be, I'd imagine it had

to be like extremely dangerous
cause a lot of those, well, a

lot of the people from Europe, I
mean they're they're literally

in the country not too long.
So yeah, a lot of desperate

people from a lot of different
places in the world, Yes.

So danger gets brought up a lot
in different ways, too.

There's just they're basically
all sharing these primitive

churches.
He's got to explain to them what

Adobe is like the air dried
bricks.

So here, here's this guy, right?
This, this young German

immigrant who has spent his life
in college and in missionary and

gets sent to the Wild West.
He he's standing in this public

Plaza of San Antonio.
The Stagecoach just kind of

drops him off and he gets out
and he kind of like looks at the

Stagecoach driver like which way
to go.

And the guys is like, yeah,
takes off and he's just standing

there trying to find someone to
help him.

And there's this there's this
exchange that he talks about

which is just it's so funny and
this happens quite often.

His stories, he just throws
these little stories in, so he's

looking for someone to point in
some kind of direction and he

goes on to to say this, he says.
Meanwhile, an older man

approached me whose nose and
face showed that they had

already cost him a lot of money.
He spoke to me in the Nassau

dialects, now the Nassau
dialects.

I I had to look this up because
he did use another word based

off of Nassau to describe this
guy and basically in high

German.
Again, a high German dialect.

And I don't know, I don't know
how long it was spoken in

Germany, but so high German
Nassau is like the the best way

I can describe it as a
freeloader.

There's a lot of ways they
describe it, but basically

someone who lives off of other
people, he's a freeloader.

So he's he's spoke to me in the
Nassau dialects.

He said, are you a greenhorn?
I answer.

I've been in the country since
November last year, He said

you're a Craftsman.
Answer.

I'm a Lutheran preacher, he
says.

All you have to do is get back
to where you came from quickly.

We don't need any idiots here.
There are already far too many

here, he says.
What a first greeting this was,

right?
It's like, there's this guy that

he's he's like a freeloader and
he's calling him an idiot

because he's a preacher, right?
This, this is the Wild West, he

says.
But the the freeloader, the the

NASA are still had a human
feeling.

He ran with me to several German
houses to ask for food and

accommodation for the night.
I should give him my inaugural

speech tomorrow or my inaugural
sermon tomorrow.

Yes, we went a step further,
took me to an inn, ordered a

snack and a drink, which I,
poor, hungry and thirsty, gladly

accepted.
So even though this guy, it's

like rough and nobody really
wants to help anybody, they all

kind of understand, hey, we're
all we're all in this together.

So this, like this crazy
freeloader, helps him get his

start in San Antonio because
he's the only person that'll

talk to him.
I just get this this image of

him leaving.
What was the the name of the

Germantown Bremen or?
Bremen and I and well, wherever

he is and and again I'm having
this.

Romanticized version, But I just
imagine him standing on like a

cobblestone St. with these
beautiful buildings and he's

walking the one way and then all
of a sudden he's like standing

up.
Like where in your, in your in

your romanticized version of the
Wild West.

Where he's standing in where
tumbleweeds are, are are going

by and there's horses and
there's it's and and there's

like gunfights.
It's so you go from one extreme,

like literally from one extreme
to the other.

Exactly it.
It it's it's an amazing story.

And remember he went to, he went
to university in Switzerland.

So imagine what what Switzerland
was like in the 1800s.

Like I've seen pictures of these
towns that he was, that he was

in from that time.
And there's just these massive

cathedrals and it's this
beautiful landscape.

And then here he is in these
podunk like southwestern towns

that aren't even finished yet.
It's probably just mud and dirt

and cactus and horseshit
everywhere.

And he's He doesn't.
He doesn't have a a penny to his

name and this this is and.
The church sent him there.

I said.
Hey and and not only that.

He he could have very easily got
there and been like, yeah, I'm

out.
I'm just going to go find the

first job I can find and I'm not
doing this, but this he he

doubled down.
He's like, no, this is, I'm

going to make this work.
So he goes on to found the the

St.
John's Lutheran Church in San

Antonio a few years later and he
was back and forth from San

Antonio to Fredericksburg.
Here he is, he's standing in San

Antonio.
He he finds somewhere to stay.

He's got a little food, but this
is a rough life.

And he's got excerpts from his
personal diary in here, where

he's saying things like, Oh my
God, your poor man calls on you

now, the merciful one for help.
You can show me.

You can advise me, leave me on
level paths and show me the

right path with you.
I am.

I am as I am.
Don't let me sink in the mud.

Don't let me drown.
So he's he's writing out these

prayers because things are
getting so bad.

The pastors he came to Texas
with are all gone their separate

ways.
He's got no support.

He's got no infrastructure.
He's got like maybe six families

that are listening to him.
They're that he's preaching to,

which I mean back then families
were huge, but this, this is

like really, really a tough time
to be.

So he's he's writing down these
prayers and basically saying

this is just how life is in in
Texas at this time.

But without hesitation he just
dives right into it and he talks

to every person he can, every
German he can.

So within like 6 to 8 months he
opens a school to a bilingual

school and bilingual German in
Spanish.

Because the I mean he Lutheran
is German, he speaks German.

All his sermons are in German,
but Texas was part of Mexico, so

Mexican is largely spoken in the
state.

So that's what he's got to
learn.

And didn't and and Texas was
span Spanish territory right

before.
Yeah, yeah, So yeah, it was

Texas was part of Mexico.
Mexico was Spanish territory.

Well, OK, right, right.
So you you're gonna probably

have native Mexicans and also
then Spanish Spanish immigrants.

At the same time, yeah, that's
why at the one point we just

talked about the IT being a
Babble like because it was, it's

now a a, a state in the Union
which was a part of Mexico,

which was a part of Spain.
And all these things kind of

broke down in succession.
It's just chaos.

It is absolute chaos.
So he starts doing everything he

can to reach people.
So his his region there is like

not just San Antonio but the
entire surrounding like like 100

mile radius and at at one point
his horse gets stolen.

So he's riding he literally is
riding on a donkey around Texas

or you know sometimes a mule if
he's lucky.

And there's AI.
Have the plaque here hold on and

I'll I'll put this in the show
notes.

This is from Saint Paul Lutheran
Church in Texas, and it's plaque

on the wall says descendants of
German pioneers who settled this

area in the 1850s hold
membership in this church as

early as 1853.
Missionaries such as Pastor

Philip Zitzelman, who rode a
donkey, held services in

settlers homes.
Church was organized with 13

members on February 13th, 1872.
And it goes on to talk about the

church.
But he's actually on this plaque

as the the pastor who rode a
donkey.

That's pretty cool.
And I'll put these pictures in

the show notes.
So yeah, so he's riding around

trying to find you're going to
Mexican settlements, going to

German settlements, going to
American settlements, going to

forts, going to wherever he can
to preach.

And this starts wearing on him.
And the climate starts wearing

on him.
He starts getting sicker and

sicker and sicker and he winds
up coming home One day walks in

the house, lays down his bed and
he can't get up and he's he's

down for like 3 days.
On the third day, another one of

these these crazy stories of his
pops up.

So on the third day there's a
knock at the door and it just

opens and in walks this
acquaintance of his.

Let me find my spot here.
OK, so on the third day after I

laid down, and for the first
time in an easy hour, the door

of the room opened and a German
unhorsed by misfortune, who had

often visited me before and was
only known as the crazy Doctor,

he never revealed his real name.
He came in.

It's.
Just it's.

Some crazy doctor shows that's
his name.

The crazy doctor.
A peculiar man, finally

scientifically educated, with
very chic manner.

So he now came in.
After looking around the room

and discovering me in the corner
on a bed of straw, he called

out.
He said, Well, what are you

doing in the nest?
I replied, weekly and briefly.

Dr. I'm sick, he said.
Why didn't you let me know?

So I replied, I don't have
anyone I could send.

Also, I have absolutely no means
to pay you as a doctor or a

pharmacist.
And the crazy doctor replies,

Well then you'll die.
Wow.

And then he says, But friends, I
don't want that.

And I don't want you to do that.
I you don't have to pay me.

Are you happy if I treat you?
And he says yes, of course.

And this doctor, this crazy
doctor says, Look, I'll.

I'll take care of you.
I'll find out what's wrong with

you.
I'll pay for your medicine if

you we you need anything, I'll
take care of you.

I'll find you food.
And he does.

He he kind of takes care of
this, of my great, great

grandfather, like, he says, like
a mother taking care of her

child.
Here we go.

So here's what he says.
He says this doctor cared for me

like a mother and gave me
several hours a day for six long

weeks.
Finally, when I was already able

to go to bed again.
And on the way, the stresses

were attacking me in full
translation.

So basically he's he's well
enough to be worried again.

He's he starts bringing in
people from the families he's

preaching to so he can, he can
teach him.

And this is like a massive set
back for him.

He falls.
I'll again, he's down for weeks.

The doctor comes back and he's
like, you've got what he called

nervous fever.
And he he's treating him for

that.
And he starts to feel better and

the doc, crazy doctor,
disappears for a while.

So he's like, well, I I can't
just lay in bed.

So he goes to one of the his his
neighbors who's a Mexican family

and he's like, look I I've been
sick.

I've been in bed and it the the
neighbors know.

So they they give him some food
and they help him out a little

bit and he collapses and the the
doctor shows back up and he's

furious.
He's like you're not listening

to what I tell you.
Your spleen is inflamed.

You need to rest now.
He's been down for months at

this point, so.
I had no idea but this is a

story that I and I can't find
the book.

I swear I had this book
somewhere where the story is

retold but it it came from this
documentation.

So the doctor he goes, look stay
here I'll be back.

He comes back with two of the
pastors that he came to Texas,

two of the past two of the
pastors that my great, great

grandfather came to Texas with
and.

They show up and they say,
listen, the doctor came and got

us.
You're in a bad way.

You're coming with us.
We're going to leave tonight

because he doesn't want you
traveling in the heat of the

sun, in the heat of the day.
We're going to this little town,

which is.
I've got the name here

somewhere.
I think it was Castroville they

go to.
So they take him to this little

area of Castroville.
It's a farm.

And the doctor tells him before
he leaves, Listen, there's

there's vegetables, there's
corn, there's sweet potatoes,

there's cucumbers, there's
water.

There's you'll be fine there.
Stay there.

They they know to take care of
you.

You'll have all the provisions
you need.

This is the story I read.
It doesn't say as such, but this

is the story I read where he was
really ill.

He shows up at this farm and the
the farmer's Wife makes this

cucumber salad that he credits.
I remember you telling me about

this.
He credits his cucumber salad as

what healed him.
Wasn't that like a cucumber

yogurt?
Something like that.

Yeah.
It's like a like a German,

something like that.
Cucumber salad.

Yeah.
But yeah, so he, he stays there

for a while and he, you know,
gets himself back to health.

But yeah, it's funny that in
that other story they, they

credit it to the cucumber salad.
And I read this, and there's the

cucumber salad.
He then winds up going back to

San Antonio.
He stays there briefly, and that

something happens.
And of course, this is the

official documentation.
So it's just like he moved on to

Fredericksburg.
But in other reports, it was

that he wasn't getting enough
support in San Antonio from

Germany.
So he was like, look, if you're

not going to support me here,
I'm going to go somewhere where

I can find support.
And he went to Fredericksburg.

So whichever story is correct,
it's probably a combination of

the two.
He he winds up going to

Fredericksburg, and there he
organized the Zyron, the Zyron

he organizes the Zion Lutheran
Church.

He meets his wife there.
Christina Slaughterbach, The

Lutherans of Fredericksburg had
no pastor and worshipped with

other churches.
And they were they were sick of

it because Lutheran Lutheranism
is really strict.

Like there's there's things that
you got to follow and these

other churches, they don't, you
know, different churches are, it

could be similar, but there's
things that are completely

different.
So one of the problems they had

here in Fredericksburg was they
had this thing it was called the

the the Vierdens Kirchen the
it's the best way.

It's a it's another Community
Church basically.

So it's a building that any
church can basically allot time

to so they can hold their their
services.

So he starts using this and he
he goes twice and the people who

run this church say you're out,
you're not allowed back because

his congregation just wanted to
worship.

So they go in and they'd worship
and they'd leave and they'd come

back and they'd worship and then
they left.

All these other denominations
that are in this church, they're

kind of being riled up by in the
only way he's listed.

And I don't know if this is
actually his name is Pastor

Danger.
I know that's just my my greater

grandfather because he got like
the crazy doctor, Pastor Danger.

But I only ever find this guy
referred to in in multiple books

as Pastor Danger.
He's kind of stirring the pot,

trying to get, you know, oh,
that you you guys should be in

this church and you guys should
be here.

And we're going to use the
church today.

You know, you're supposed to use
it.

And he's just creating all these
problems.

So my great, great grandfather
in his congregation, they leave

and they find a building that's
not being used and they start

using that.
They then start to raise some

money and they buy a lot.
They buy it on a lot on a street

called Sensaba St.
It's now Main Street and they

they buy, they buy this lot for
$45.00.

Could you imagine buying I?
Wonder what that was back then

though?
18.

One they that those rich
families were going to pay him

$100 a year.
So $45.00 is a lot.

The church building was roughly
50 by 40 by 20, and it cost him

about $1200 to make.
They raised the money by selling

corn and sweet potatoes to
distant forts in coastal coastal

cities 300 miles away.
The congregation volunteered

their time and labor and
Reverend Zitzman himself, he was

like when somebody wasn't there
to do something, he did it,

including works in the lime kiln
stocking the fires to make the

brick.
They made the bricks by hand for

this church.
So this is that church.

I don't know if you remember, on
my living room wall, I've got

that sketch of that little.
That's the church.

He literally built that by hand.
Once the church was built,

though, the one of the first
things to be done was one of his

friends, one of his pastor
friends came in and resided over

his wedding ceremony.
So it was one of the first

things that there was he got
married.

So he sends a report to Germany
talking about the building of

the of the church and he says
the building plans drawn by the

pastor were accepted.
One master Mason and one chief

Carpenter were hired for
supervisors.

Building stones, homemade lime,
sand, water and other materials

were furnished by members of the
congregation.

The first task was to find a
choir and open a quarry.

So they they had their own
quarry where the building stones

could be obtained.
A stove had to be built to

prepare the lime.
Every morning he should have six

men to run the kiln and when he
didn't he would help out and

then he'd also run the kiln at
night.

This continued for some time and
I would mention, so you talked

about a couple people who put in
like 130 a 140 days of Labor,

volunteered it.
Not to mention the time they

spent transferring goods from
place to place.

They would take these, they
raised the money like like I

said, by selling corn and sweet
potatoes over the same routes

that he brought that he came in
on the Stagecoach.

So like up to 300 miles away,
they would volunteer to take

their goods, sell it, bring it
back so they could build this

church.
The faith that was required to

live in the Old West.
Like you had to hold on to that.

That's what kept people going.
Yeah, you had to just wait.

You you couldn't.
You didn't have any.

You didn't have an option.
You had to wake up and just do

what you had to do.
So that was in Fredericksburg.

Shortly after he got married,
they went back to San Antonio.

They they grew that church.
But he was constantly back and

forth to forts and all this and
the last crazy story I'll tell

about Texas is this letter he
wrote another chapter another

book of a letter where he's
talking about he's got to go to

what is the to this Fort And the
name of the Fort escapes me but

he's got to go to this Fort and
all he's got is a mule.

So as he leaves town, the like
the the ladies, it's like a

ladies auxiliary, like a ladies
aid group.

They make sure that any
missionaries who come through

have food and water.
You know, anybody who is in need

gets help.
So when he goes on these

excursions, they give him a bag
of food so he's on his mule and

off he goes.
Well, actually in this case he's

got, he's got bread, he's got
ham, he's got like homemade

sausage, he's got some water and
he's got some coffee.

Those are the provisions he
takes 'cause he's he's not gone

for weeks at a time.
It's it's maybe a day or two.

So he he comes across the stream
and it's a good, it's a good

time for a break.
He's hungry.

He wants to let his mule rest So
and they're using Indian paths.

This is, these are the the roots
they have.

So he moves off the path and he
finds this little spot and he

says like the grass is as high
as as a man.

And he says, but it's just, it's
just peaceful.

There's there's no one around.
So he's sitting on this, the

edge of this Creek, and he's
cutting up his bread and his ham

and his sausage.
And he looks up and he's

surrounded by a pack of dogs.
And he's like, these are hunting

dogs, These are, these are
Indian hunting dogs.

This is, if they're here, then
there's a tribe nearby, like

they're hunting.
And before he can even get that

sentence out in his head,
through through the grass, 4

Comanches come through and he's
just like, what do I do?

He has no, he has no idea what
to do here.

He's not on his land.
He's in the wild.

He's surrounded by these dogs.
They they get off their horses

and he realizes they're squaws
and they're looking at them and

they're touching them and
they're walking around them and

they're making funny faces.
And then one starts to talk to

him in broken Spanish.
We want someone that ham.

We're hungry basically, is what
they say.

And he's so he's like, I've got
plenty of ham.

So he sits there on this
embankment in Wild West Texas

surrounded by nothing, this
German immigrant with four

Comanche squaws, and they have a
meal and then they get done and

they kind of realize, he says.
They kind of realize that he's

way out of his element and they
kind of, they kind of just give

them a look and they they kind
of say their goodbyes and they

hop on their horses and they
they ride away and he's just

like gets on his mule and he's
like, I'm getting out, I'm just

getting out like that was way
too close.

And all I could picture on
reading this is, can Can you

imagine, like of all the hiking
and backpacking I do, if I was

ever sitting there for lunch and
all of a sudden I was surrounded

by just like wild dogs and
people who lived in the forest,

I I would shit myself, you know,
and.

Well, you don't know who your
friends or your enemies are.

It could have been anybody,
should have been anybody.

It could have, right?
And and basically you're well, I

mean anybody in that situation,
you're taking your life.

You know you'll every, every,
every.

I don't wanna say confrontation
every time you meet somebody.

You just don't know who you
don't know.

What they want and The thing is,
is he's, I mean, he's clearly

he's German now, he's been in
Texas for a few years now, but

he's clearly white.
And you don't know.

You know, this is around a time
where relations between the

Native Americans and the
Americans are really falling

apart.
So you don't know what

interactions they've had before
that you don't know.

They might just see you and be
like, oh, there's a white guy,

kill him.
He's here to take herself.

You don't know.
I.

Wonder if if it was because
because of the the

confrontations that they had
with the Spanish.

I wonder if it was actually
better for him that he was white

and maybe not.
Or I shouldn't say white, but

maybe German other than Spanish.
Because maybe, maybe they they

took pity on him.
Maybe.

Maybe.
I mean, I'm sure he was dressed

in his, you know, his clergy,
you know, garb, but whatever,

whatever, you know, called the
grace of God, I don't know.

But he, he got out of there like
it was it that could have gone

all sort, like that story right
there could have ended and I

wouldn't be here to tell it.
That's simple like that, like

anything could have gone wrong.
So he winds up leaving, getting

to the the Fort he's trying to
get to or there's like a like a

stop in between and he gets some
food there.

He makes it to the Fort he's
trying to get to.

And as he's going to the Fort,
he can hear, he can hear dogs

barking.
He can hear hunting calls and of

Comanches and and he's he's
nervous, 'cause he's like, look

that was that was a really good
interaction I had that could

have gone bad.
And Comanches, if you're on your

hunting ground, they may not
look to see if you were friend

or foe.
If they think you're trying to

hunt their their land, they're
just they'll just do away with

you.
They that's you're already

trespassing on their property,
you know.

So it could have been really
bad.

So he gets to the Fort he talks
to a soldier there.

Soldiers like, oh you're trying
to go to this place.

Here's some provisions head off
in that direction.

So he gets back on his mule and
he starts heading off in this

direction.
Now it's getting, it's like

getting on night time and he
keeps hearing these hunting

calls and then he starts seeing
like glints off the trail and

he's hearing voices closer and
he's like this isn't good this,

this they're not hunting
animals.

They they see me.
So he basically, and I don't

know where if this is something
that is common to do back in the

day, but he basically, let's go
with the reins, rests them on

the pommel and lets the mule do
its own thing.

Because instead of him trying to
figure out how to get out of the

situation, he's like the mule's
going to know what to do.

The the mule is sensing that
there's danger.

He lets the mule do its own
thing.

The mule winds up going down to
a Creek, winding in and out

winds up back at the Fort.
He comes to the thicket and he's

back at the Fort and he's like,
Oh my God, he's like, great.

So he goes in the Fort, finds
the same soldier.

He's like, what are you doing
here?

He's like, this is what
happened.

He goes, oh, well, then you
don't want to leave again until

the morning, OK, So he stays the
night.

Next morning he gets up, he gets
out to where he needs to go.

He goes with a soldier.
So he he gets to the right spot.

But on his return trip, he's
coming back on his own.

So he's coming down the path and
he's he's tired, he's, he

remembers the situation he had
the night before and he says I

need to eat, but I'm not going
to stop.

So he just reaches in a satchel
again.

He he wraps his reins around the
pommel.

He he's got his bread, he's got
his ham, he's got sausage in one

hand, he's got his knife in the
other.

He's just cutting off pieces,
eating them as a horse, as the

mules going.
And he's, he's eating.

And all of a sudden he looks up
and out of the high grass comes

a group of a troop of, like a
chief and a few warriors of the

Comanche.
And they surround him and he's

like, he's got a knife in his
hand, you know, And he's like,

and he looks at them and he, he
knows they speak broken Spanish.

So he's trying to communicate
with them and they kind of look

at him and he just kind of like
nod towards his food and he's

like plenty to go around.
They whenever they made their

their sausage out of was just
attracting his Comanches every

time he was going by like what
is that smells great they were

coming for food.
So he he divvies up the food and

then he gets, he stays on his
mule and he he doesn't stop.

He lets his mule drink, but he
just goes until he gets home and

he just gets home and he just
like collapses in his bed and

he's like crazy story.
I never heard like of all the

sources that draw from this book
that talk about the experiences

that they had out.
They just say there was

encounters but they never go
into them.

And yeah that's a stat that's
right there is I almost as

you're telling the story I, I, I
I think that maybe they were

actually they knew I mean if
they had hunting dogs those dog

that those dogs were probably
smelling that donkey and him and

that food.
So they probably knew he like

they probably have been for
following him and watching him,

and they knew he wasn't really
that much of A threat and they

probably.
Nuts.

Like they probably just went up
and had a conversation to see if

he was going to be nice.
Like, Oh, yeah, here.

Yeah.
And and they they they kind of

knew too.
Like, it's not really robbery,

but hey, listen, there's like
six of us and there's one of you

with a pocket knife and a mule.
So how about you?

How about you share some of that
food, you know, and which he was

more than happy to do.
So he he goes back he he's in

Fredericksburg.
And that the last letter he

sends Lisa, I, I have here, he
he's talking about San Antonio

and the way that they worship
there.

And he says the type of
Catholicism is French, with the

clergy themselves, a sign from
France.

On Sundays, one can hear the
church's music of such noise

with the banging of drums and
the accompaniment of tambourines

of the Protestants, little good
maybe said for the most part

their preaching pays off only in
the secular world.

And this is where he, he kind of
complaints about this guy

danger.
And he put, he writes this

article and there's like a
publication that goes around the

area and he, you know, all the
pastors write for it.

And he writes this article, he
writes this, this little passage

about this Pastor Danger.
And he's like, look, this guy is

literally stirring the pot.
He's creating all these

problems.
And the people, they already

read it and they start leaving
this Pastor Danger and go into

either him or to other
congregations.

But he winds up writing to Texas
and he says, look, my life's in

danger here.
Like, I need I we we need more

support here.
And he's he's there for a little

while longer.
And then they wind up pulling

him out of Texas.
He's he's done his work in Texas

and they they sent him word.
They say you're going to get on

a boat and you're you're going
to New York City.

So he's he's like, well, it's
got to be better than Texas,

right?
At least at least this.

Well, I rethink, yeah.
How many times have you.

Yeah, It's not that cities are a
lot better, but it's a city, you

know, you're not in the in the
wilderness.

So he gets on this boat.
He goes to New York.

And almost immediately upon
getting there, he meets with an

old friend who says, listen,
until they give you an

assignment, why don't you come
with me?

We'll go to upstate New York and
maybe you can stay here.

Maybe this will be where where
they'll sign you.

Maybe they see that you're here,
they'll sign you here.

So he goes there briefly, and
almost immediately they say new

directions.
You're going to Scranton.

And I looked up this town and I
forget what the name of it was.

That was in upstate New York.
I I wish he would have stayed

there, because maybe my family
would still be there.

It's right in between the
Catskills and the Adirondacks.

Like, right in between.
Yeah, It must have been gorgeous

there in the 1800s.
I can only.

Imagine.
Could you imagine?

Yeah, so.
Nothing but trains and farms, if

there's even trains.
I mean, we're if.

There was even trains.
We're talking like center state

between not, not in the Hudson,
oh like in between like where

the two parks almost kind of
like they get close to.

They don't really touch but they
they kind of get close to each

other like in that region.
So.

So he was there for a brief time
and then they they sent him to

Scranton and he gets to Scranton
and there's there's

congregation, but they they're
not well organized.

So he comes in and now he's
like, look, I just, I just

survived Texas.
This is going to be easy.

So basically it is for him.
He gets to Scranton and he

becomes one of the the most
respected clergymen in the area

very quickly and he winds up
there's a like a a public what

what do we call this?
It's almost like a Grange hall

or a like a meeting hall.
We we don't you we don't have

them anymore but they used to
have them in cities where like

like a Community Center kind of
thing.

But they would use that for
services or they would go to a a

house here or there you know.
And I've looked at where his his

house was that he built and it
was at the end of Mulberry St.

well, at the time, the end of
Mulberry St. which was the edge

of Scranton, which is now where
Harrison Ave. is.

So there's there's a lot there
where there's always like a RV

or a boat or something parked
there.

Like every time I drive by I'm
like that's where the house used

to be.
That's where that's where he

used to live.
So he lived on the outside of

the city.
He wound up buying a a church

and a a Parsonage from a Welsh
congregation down in Mifflin

Ave. down by the river.
They they use that for years.

They they built it up.
And then he didn't have enough

excitement in his life.
He decides, well, I'm going to

start going up to this.
What what's the area called now?

Petersburg.
Yeah.

So the area in in Scranton
called Petersburg Corners at the

time was not, it was its own
settlement.

It was not a part of Scranton.
Scranton was considered far

away, so he had to.
Now it's just an.

It's just it's just
neighborhood.

Like you wouldn't think it was.
Yeah, all, all the roads.

Yeah, it's, it's.
But yeah, so he goes up there

and he's like, you guys need a
church.

Which is closer to his house
well now.

That that would have been
relatively close.

Now it is, but it was through
the wilderness at that point.

There was literally nothing
between it was, well, it's like

maybe a mile, right, if that, at
the Petersburg corners.

Through a forest, Through a
rugged Pennsylvania forest.

So he'd he'd walk up there, So
he'd walk to his church down in

Mifflin Ave. which is probably a
mile from where he lived down

the hill.
And then he'd walk up to

Petersburg, and he built a
church up there.

And the congregation was like,
well, we want a resident pastor.

We we don't really want, you
know, you're here sometimes, but

we want a resident pastor.
So he's like, oh, OK, well,

look, I got me on church.
That's what you guys want to do.

I'll, you know, the church is
yours, You know, no hard

feelings.
I'm going to go do my thing.

So he goes, and this is the
Saint Peter's Evangelical

Lutheran Church.
The lot was on Ash and Prescott.

It's now a bank, yeah.
He officiated the laying of the

cornerstone in 1868, and he
served until 1870.

And that's when they were.
Some of the congregation was

like, we want a pastor that
lives here, so he leaves.

This caused a huge problem in
this church because they now had

to pay someone to live in the
church.

And so all these other members
of the church who were like,

why?
What?

What was wrong with having him
here?

Like there is no problem.
It it was like a political

struggle within that church.
So after 7 pastors in eight

years and like all kinds of like
some would last like weeks and

they're like ousted.
They re elected him to be the

pastor in in 1878 and then he
preached there until 1882 when

he was like this is too far for
me to walk.

I can't keep doing this.
So that that was still in the

old location where that where
the bank is.

There is a church now down like
2 blocks down that is the the

continuation of that church.
But the original church is gone,

as is the one over over on
Mifflin Ave. but the one on

Mifflin Avenue I do have
pictures of and I've got that

hanging up on my wall and I'll
put a copy of that in the in the

show notes too.
So he's now just with the the

Zion, Yeah, the Zion Evangelical
Church on Mifflin Ave. that's.

And there he stays until he
retires.

But as I go through the
newspapers, and I'm not going to

go through all the articles, but
all these articles and some

books, there's a lot of books I
didn't mention because there was

just a mention of them, You
know, like these, these

socialites and these influential
people from the area who knew

him, who had him come in for a
wedding or a funeral or some

kind of ceremony.
And he just, his name pops up

for his guy who wanted no fame.
He went no recognition.

His name pops up everywhere in
all these books.

But then the city starts
recognizing him.

And there's several articles
about like he's the longest

tenured clergyman in the state
and they give him all these

honors and they write up these
articles about him and it's like

a year before he retires and
they give him this big write up

and they have the ceremony for
him, this dinner.

And they don't, I can't find
anything about this dinner and

the ceremony, but he kind of
he's like, you know what, I've

got people that can do this for
me.

Now he was see in how old was he
when he died.

So he's he's in his 70s now.
He died when he was 78.

So at this point he's like 76.
He's had a hard life.

He's he almost died from illness
a few times.

He almost, you know he almost
got eaten by wild dogs.

He had his 49 day boat trip from
Germany to Texas.

He went from Texas to New York.
He's walked all over,

everywhere.
So he he finally retires and

then in 1902 he he passes away.
Articles.

I got so many articles here.
So as as I'm going through these

there is some of the articles
that were written about him.

Yeah, so this is, this is as
he's getting ready to retire,

says here's a veteran and then
he's named his his successor.

So he's getting ready to step
down half a century in the

Ministry article about him, and
Scranton got this crazy sketch

of him.
Well, that's a sketch.

Don't you have a picture of him
on the wall?

Or is that that I believe is a
photo.

I believe that was a photo was
taken or it's a very well done

sketch.
The sketches they use in the

newspapers are based off of
that, but you can definitely

tell that they're hand drawn,
drawn.

So there was another article
where there's they were talking

about veterans of the pulpit.
So he was he was written about a

lot in the area and his his
family, his immediate family,

his sons and his his daughters
were successful in the area in

their own right.
But like a half page.

Well, no, maybe not a half page.
He got almost two full columns

on it on the paper.
And I I had this hanging in in

my kitchen right now.
I actually got I I went online.

There's what's the name of the
site?

newspapers.org, I think
newspapers.com.

Yeah.
So you can go through it's.

Like almost like micro fish of
newspapers.

But you can you can buy.
And I think it was pretty cheap.

It was like a subscription and
you get the downloads.

You can buy full pages of the
newspaper.

So I bought the full page of the
newspaper and it's it's huge and

I had it printed up on like a
nice piece of photo paper and

then I framed it and I've got
that hanging on my wall and it

just says the end of a long
career death came while asleep.

Reverend PF Zitzelman, oldest
minister in this county, passes

peacefully away, and it just
goes through a listing of what

he did in his life.
And it's just this, for a city

to take that much effort to put
this, you know, an obituary is

one thing.
But to have an actual, proper

article written about you just
kind of speaks to the

accomplishments that you've made
in your life.

And he, he was never rich.
He was never He never sought

fame.
He never like he could.

He could have wrote a book about
his life and could have sold.

It doesn't sound like that's
that was his.

What he He was, Yeah, not at
all.

He just wanted it, yeah.
He just wanted to.

He.
Just wants to preach.

He he had that faith and he
believed in it.

And the anywhere that I saw that
he ever preached and that I've,

I've looked at like churches
that he was a part of or that he

even was associated with, Like
there's there's one story I read

where he was going to visit
Germany.

This is in the in the 50s, back
when he was in Texas, he was on

his way to visit Germany,
Another church, another German

church.
I don't think it was even

Lutheran.
They knew he was going and they

approached him and said, hey,
listen, we've got some money.

We want to buy an organ from
this company in Stuttgart.

And he said, OK, what do you,
what do you want?

I'll buy it for you and I'll
bring it back with me.

So while he was in Germany, he
bought this organ and he brought

it back and he he took it to
them And it just says that the

pastor ordained it or like
blessed it.

I don't know if they meant him
or the pastor of the church.

But yeah, like the.
No, there's there's no like I'm

not doing that.
He's like, Oh yeah, like who?

Who travels with an?
Organ.

I'm going to pee there.
I'll just bring it back.

I got an organ.
Yeah, no problem.

I mean, they they paid for it.
But yeah, he he arranged to have

it brought over with him.
And there's all these stories in

all these churches.
When he left, they were like

this.
This is a loss.

Like if if he wasn't happy, the
community wasn't happy.

And when the community wasn't
happy, he wasn't happy.

And it was.
I never knew the man.

I I never, never met him.
I never met my grandfather, for

that matter.
But as I read about this guy and

there's no crazy ending.
There's no no fantastical ending

to this.
He just he lived his life the

way he wanted to live it.
He passed away in his sleep and

the people that he interacted
with missed him and and found

him important.
And when you look at how life is

today, there's very little of
that and you know.

People take, you know, we look
at anything, any, any kind of

inconvenience like you, you.
Your keyboard's not typing the

words you want it to type on
your phone.

You're like, oh, just can't
believe how crappy life is.

Think about this guy in his 20s,
German guy who barely speaks

Spanish or English and he's
basically lost in the Wild West

and sent to people who don't.
Necessarily want him to be there

like they didn't.
A lot of them didn't ask for a

preacher.
They didn't ask for a

missionary.
They were too busy trying to

survive.
And he went there and there are

several articles that name him
instrumental in the fact that

there's even Lutheran churches,
not just in Texas but in the

country and.
It's like I'm not a religious

person, but I can I see the
importance in in his faith and

at the time that he was alive,
that was the most important

thing.
Because without that, how do you

survive?
Well, and and and I'd say that.

When you have a positive impact
on other people, it it and and I

don't want to use the word I
don't want, I don't want to

refer to as karma, but it it
does get paid forward.

So if when you're good to
somebody else, generally they'll

be kind and good to somebody
else and it it there's there

was. 100 something years ago it
was it was more selfless, so you

just did it.
That's that's who you were as a

person.
And we need more of that today.

I mean, you you didn't have a
choice.

People understood at the time
that we're all in this together,

especially like out there like I
I guess at the in the East Coast

at that time it maybe it was
more, you know, people were a

little more likely to want to be
on their own.

But in the West, I mean the
United States had just formed.

You know, we we were still going
through some tumultuous times

and if you were out there, if
you were on the frontier, you it

didn't matter.
If you wanted that person there

or not, if you knew who they
were, if you trusted them or if

you'd like them, you had to hope
that they weren't going to steal

from you, kill you or worse.
And it just it, I think it

instilled trust in people or
maybe just an ability to be

trustworthy.
Like you knew that you can't

screw that person over because
you don't want them to screw you

over.
So you have to be more

trustworthy.
And I I think in a society like

we have today, that's not as
important because there's we're

so connected.
You can lop off whole arms of

people you know that you didn't
and just go a different

direction because with, you
know, social media and all that,

you can just kind of make your
own way up.

But back then you didn't have
that connection if you like I

said when he was contacting
Germany, it wasn't like he was

on the phone.
It wasn't.

It wasn't even like today where
it might take a couple days to

get the letter.
If it takes 49 days to sail

there yourself, it's going to
take 49 days for the mail to get

there and then 49 days for it to
get to you or back to the

country, and then they're going
to find you, right well.

And then they're going to.
They're going to actually have.

To read it and respond, which is
to it's not going to happen in

the same amount of time that no
today because they they thought

things out.
I mean when I tell you his

letters were like chapters 7-8
pages of double column.

Like calligraphy style, written
pages of of letter and like this

writing a letter wasn't just, it
wasn't like today you just send

a text and you're like, oh, like
you know what I sent you for?

Oh, I'm gonna eat something.
Then I'll be ready to record and

send it.
No, you you like it'd be.

You know, I hope today finds you
well.

And you know the weather here
has been and you tell everything

because that you you got to
because it's gonna be a while

before you get reply and then by
time you get and it might be

the.
Last time you it might be the

last time you can send.
Something because by the time 80

days goes by or 100 days goes by
in between letters, minimum a

lot can happen in 100 days.
Well, just imagine that, that

group of people, he arrived.
With and they decided to go

their own way.
It's like, well, see ya.

Because it's not like you're
ever gonna find them again

unless you happen to go show up
to that town and go looking for

them.
And maybe yeah, I mean there's

in in closer situations like
that you you had a little bit

better communication but not
great and like this the the

information I just shared is
only his point of view.

There's still like letters and
points of view from these other

four guys or these other three
guys like this.

This book is, it's incredible
and there is now an English

translated version of it and I
almost want to buy it but it's

like I I can translate this one
and it's I think it might be I I

don't know what's going to be
more accurate.

But I mean it's it's just, it's
an incredible story of what you

had to do to survive when the
country was new and when you

think.
About anything that could be

wrong in your life today.
Just picture yourself eating

some sausage and ham in the
wilderness and you're suddenly

surrounded by a pack of wild
dogs, hunting dogs and four

Comanche squaws with their, and
I did forget to mention with

their bows and arrows and they
got you surrounded and you don't

know what they're saying.
That's a stressful day right

there.
Yeah.

That that's enough for, I think,
for a lot of people to just pack

up and go somewhere else and
say, OK, this this is not the

life I'm looking for.
Although, I mean, what would he

have done if if he wants, I
mean, you just disappear, but he

didn't, that's.
That's the fact.

I mean, he he didn't.
He didn't, technically.

He didn't particularly like the
traveling aspect of it.

He didn't like the riding a mule
around the wilderness aspect of

it.
He didn't like the climate.

He didn't like the.
You know, the confrontations he

was having.
He didn't like, you know, the

pastor Danger.
He didn't like the boat ride.

He didn't like what he was being
paid.

He didn't like any of it.
But he was.

He was dedicated to his faith
and he kept doing it.

And that's like.
People don't have that today.

No.
Well, I mean, and and most of

it, just to even get to the
human connection today, is there

even everybody's too connected
to a point where you don't, what

would you even have to say, what
would most people say about

someone?
Oh, yeah, he was a good guy.

But but would would you have
that much of an impact except

for the people you're close to?
But for the most part, people

are so connected that they think
they know someone and they

really have no connection.
What's no?

You're so connected.
You're disconnected, right?

Where?
Where he went out of his way as,

as a lot of people did back
then, went out of their way to

actually be a part of people's
lives and to try to make things

better.
Yeah, And again, you don't.

You just don't get that, I mean.
You do.

I'm I'm sure there are people
that do that, but there's a lot

less people doing that now than
there were back then in right in

scale, you know, back then, more
people.

I think were trying to do.
There's less people.

But there was more more
percentage of that higher

percentage of people are trying
to make things better and I'm

sure a lot of people are trying
to make things worse too trying

to make it better for
themselves.

But and there's still more of
this story that I don't know.

I've I've I've reached out to
two of the other churches that I

found out that he was
instrumental in the founding of

the one got back or three other
churches one of them got back to

me and.
They're pulling their

information and they're going to
try to get to me tomorrow.

The other two I haven't heard
back from yet.

And then I've I found the the
the United States Wide Synod of

the Lutheran Church and I
reached out to them and see if

they have any information or if
they know somebody who can get

me more information on them
because I'm sure there's there's

going to be more.
It's just, oh, I I it sounds

like there could be more stories
and this is just one person in

my family.
And I I read these things and

then I sit there and I go, the
hell have I done, you know?

Like, yeah.
So I I hike on.

Pre marked hiking trails good
for.

You this guy was forging.
His way through, You know, the

wilderness of Texas with
nothing.

But I would have really liked
his perspective to think about.

You know, you're you're born,
raised in Germany, you go to

school in Switzerland, and then
all of a sudden the church says,

hey, guess what?
You're going to America.

You know, you don't, you
probably don't have a choice.

And you're like, well, it's in
God's hands.

Well, a lot of times that's what
he says too.

He's like it's just.
If it's, if it's the Lord's

will, that's what's gonna
happen.

But I I would be fascinated like
if there is, you know, people

are like if there's anybody from
history you could ever talk to,

it would it would be him.
I would love to sit down and

just have a conversation with
him and just he would probably

hate my guts.
He'd be like what what a, what a

heathen this guy is.
But it would be incredible to to

speak to that man and get the
stories from, because, I mean

these are stories that he sent.
This is the stuff he was sending

to his bosses, pretty much.
Imagine the stuff that's not in

there.
So if I could find, I mean he

had a diary.
I I don't know what happened to

that.
I have no idea what happened to

that and I wish I could find it.
See that would be.

Interesting because I would like
to hear his, his, his first hand

interactions with the people
from around here 100 years ago

or 100 plus.
Not at this point.

That would have been really
interesting to his to see his

insight of of a a boom town, if
you will.

That would have been, you know,
it'd be funny if it turned out

that he was his first.
One say Ena.

That's a local joke.
Local joke there.

That's a local joke, but that's
that is the.

Story of police for now, of the
Reverend Philip Frederick

Zitzelman, my great, great
grandfather.

I I mean, I hope it didn't bore
you guys.

I I find it fascinating.
And maybe it's maybe it's not.

Maybe it's just me.
I think it's an awesome story

and it's a it's a true American
story.

I think it's fantastic.
It is.

And I know there's a lot of
times.

When people say, you know,
'cause I, I have a pretty, not,

not stringent view, but I really
believe that as a country we

should, we should protect our
borders, right?

But.
A lot of people to go Oh well

you just you you're anti
immigrant.

No, I I'm not.
I I I welcome anyone who wants

to come to the United States and
and do it the right way, I mean.

Do we need to?
Change the way that is maybe do

we need to make it easier in
some ways or we're we're using

antiquated system possibly but
there's there's ways to do

things and there's ways to not
but yeah I mean that's that's

the the perfect immigration
story of.

Of someone who came to the
country and had to, basically.

Make the country.
I mean he in the one article

he's he, they say he's like one
of the original, one of the

original people in Scranton,
which I don't know how true

that.
Is, but I know he was one of the

first.
One of the longest serving

pastors clergymen in in the
state, in the well in the city

definitely, but in the state, in
the region.

But I don't remember when
Scranton became Scranton because

before that it was Slocum.
Hot.

Can't remember, right?
Now, yeah, I can't remember

right now.
But it would have been a

wilderness for the most part.
Well, I mean by 1902 the coal

would have been big by by then.
So there would have been, you

know, it was.
I know at one point it was

busier in, in comparison to like
New York City.

There was that many.
Oh yeah, yeah.

Per capita there was more people
in Scranton than New York City

at 1:00.
Point Yeah it was a it was a

huge city.
Now we're talking 1860 he came

to Scranton.
So I I don't.

I it was it was Scranton for a
while before then I know that.

But it was not huge at the time.
I mean, if if the city limits

were Harrison Ave., well,
Harrison Ave. wasn't even there.

Yeah, that was.
The wilderness if.

You, if you're standing on
Harrison Ave. now, you were in

the woods in 1860.
You know that was you were out

of city limits.
So, I mean, Scranton's a lot

bigger than that now, right?
Well.

There might have been iron
furnaces.

There might have been coal
mines.

Yeah.
So there might have been

railroad.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's

railroad.
I mean, there's a lot of

railroads.
Came through SO well, they yeah,

but when you think about.
How big it is it it the the

neighboring neighborhoods if you
will.

I mean you're talking the city
probably was huge and then you

had a lot of settlements in
comparison would have been not

even just the country.
It would have been a long.

Like it would have been like a
day's ride on a horse.

Well, I mean think about it when
you, when you think of the area,

if you're from.
Northeast PA and you're no

Scranton at all.
You've got.

You've got, like Petersburg,
it's now known as Petersburg

Corners.
That was its own town.

You've got Providence, that was
its own town.

You've got what's the other
little one down that way, like

down by the where the racetrack
used to be, the the plots, the

flats, the plots.
Yeah, that was its own little

town.
It's amazing that, like Dickson

City isn't.
Part of Scranton.

It's amazing that Dunmore didn't
become part of Scranton because

it's it expanded all those
little towns that were their own

settlements and their own towns
all wound up getting enveloped

by the city of Scranton.
And a few of them survived.

And you know, they're they're
their own things now.

But we're talking way before
that and it must have been an

incredible time to be here.
Oh, I would.

Have been fat sucked one of the
two.

Well, I I think that depends on
your your spot in life.

I mean I had an ancestor who was
a coal miner and around the

Molly McGuire days and I would
think, man, that had to be a

hard life.
And from what the family used to

tell me, 'cause they're mostly
gone at this point.

But he during those times he
made a lot of money as a coal

miner and and when he was done
coal mining, he bought land and

became a farmer.
But it wasn't.

I mean, he was a coal miner, but
it was enough for him to better

himself and his family.
So it's interesting, and it all

depends on where you are in
life.

Like something.
And I've got a lot of stories

from the area because I.
Mean you know, I've I've that's

just, that's just one person in
my family.

There's other people on on the
Zitzman side.

There's people on the Battenberg
side that I've got.

There's my family.
Stories in this area are

incredibly diverse.
From rags to riches to murders,

you name it, it it happened in
my family and in this area and

that's why I'm like it.
It could have been great or it

could have sucked because the
sun tog Sunday he on my on the

Battenberg side he owned an inn
and he opened the door.

He was locking the door up one
night and somebody knocked the

door.
He opened up and he got stabbed

and that was it.
He got murdered right in his own

establishment.
So.

It's luck of the draw sometimes.
You never know.

So same thing as today.
Yeah, true.

But you just.
Kind of you're kind you're.

Always kind of in danger mode, I
think nowadays, because you

never know what's gonna happen.
I guess back then anymore too,

because literally you could just
get shot and nobody know where

it came from.
Because there's no rifling,

there's no nothing like that.
There's no registration of guns.

There's no, like, I'm pretty
sure, the guy that they arrested

for stabbing Sontag.
I'm pretty sure that they they

knew he did it because they
caught him days later with the

knife still in his possession.
Really.

I think the cops are just like,
you're guilty.

Here's a knife.
That's what it seems like.

I'm sure a lot of that.
I think they they caught his

partner, maybe his.
Partner did it.

And he's like, no, it was him.
And they were like, OK, and they

they they got that guy and they
like, oh look oh oh, oh looks.

He's got the knife.
It must be him.

Because he didn't.
Because he was Hungarian and

they didn't like Hungarians back
then, so they threw him in jail.

Who knows?
I don't know about that one.

Yeah, but it's this has been a
long.

Episode and I've got a lot of
editing to do on it, so I want

to thank everybody for
listening.

I hope this didn't bore you too
much.

It was a lot of information.
It was a little bit dry

different than what we have been
doing.

But that's kind of the point of
the season fair game.

So if you want to find us on
Spotify.

And Spotify is kind of kind of
weird to search sometimes, I

know, So I've had a hard time
actually pulling up our feed on

Spotify.
I set the URL

show.primitiveintelligence.com.
If you type that in, it'll take

your right to our Spotify page,
so that'll make it a little bit

easier.
Or you can just go to

primitiveintelligence.com.
We got our links there, and you

can contact us at
podcast@primitiveintelligence.com.

So there's something you want to
talk about or comment you want

to make on one of our episodes.
You want to reach out to us?

You can go ahead and do that.
Other than that, I've got

nothing else.
You got anything, Rocco?

I've got nothing else.
No, I have nothing.

This is a wonderful story.
Thank you.

Thank you.
And that's going to do it for

us.
Thanks for.

Listening.
Enjoy the rest of your week.

See ya.